David Heflin (00:00.984)
Welcome back to In the Seams. This week I got to interview Amber Ginter who has a wonderful ministry where she reaches out to people that have various mental health conditions coming from her own story, her own struggle. And she's able to share that in a very transparent way with us in this interview. And she also talks about her own struggle with physical health, which has been something that has come on in different periods in her life, but more. 

David Heflin (00:27.694)
in recent years she's not a young adult she's twenty eight years old and she particularly ministers to people who have struggles with mental health that are in the gen z age group and that's not exclusive to that group is just a group that she knows well it's the group in which she looks back on and says when she was going through some of the stuff that they're going there a few years back that they're going through now that 

David Heflin (00:53.558)
she was not able to find the resources that she really thought ought to be there to help people with these crises that they face regarding their mental health. And we also talk a little bit about why that has been lacking in churches and on more practical level, what Christian leaders and pastors and ministers and others can do to be able to help people in a very real way, not just give them cliches, but to be able to empower them, to point them toward resources like Amber Ginter has. 

David Heflin (01:23.146)
in order to be able to find real practical help in their everyday battle with mental health. Amber also has a fascinating ministry where she uses dance. She and some people with her to be able to go and encourage and inspire people that need a little light in the darkness. And I think the name of her ministry was something like light in the darkness for her particular dance company. And so she uses various, various means in order to be able to reach people that are hurting. And so I just wanted to 

David Heflin (01:52.59)
you know, give you a little introduction to this conversation that I had with Amber. I think it was a very interesting conversation. I hope that you will enjoy it and be edified by it. And I hope you will check the show notes out so you can find a link to her website, as well as some of the other resources that are mentioned in the episode. Thank you for listening to In the Sames, and here's the interview. 

Beginning of Interview
David Heflin (00:01)
Well, I'm excited to have Amber  here with us to talk about her ministry and many different ways in which she is helping people that struggle with mental health issues, as well as some things that overlap certainly with what we normally focus on, which has to do a lot with chronic pain and chronic illnesses. But there's a whole lot of overlap between those those fears, certainly. And so Amber, just want to welcome you to In the Seams. And thank you for being with us today.

Amber Ginter Johnson (00:30)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

David Heflin (00:32)
Yeah. Well, I wanted to know if you could just share a little bit about what you experienced growing up struggling with mental health. I know this is something that goes back to your childhood, if I recall correctly, and I wondering if you could kind of share what that experience was like for you.

Amber Ginter Johnson (00:50)
Absolutely. So I grew up in a, you know, quote unquote Christian home. And really, I think that things in my home were pretty steady until I was 14. You know, my parents had me in church, I always joke and say before conception. So in the womb, I was in the church. But when I turned 14, my dad was placed on disability for a injury that he had. And so

It kind of just felt like everything happened at once. And so when my dad was placed on disability, almost overnight, he became a very different person for me. And there was a lot of verbal abuse, which I didn't understand that it was verbal abuse at the time. I kind of just assumed this is what all families are like. At the same time, I have two half siblings.

through my dad's side, and both of them I didn't really see a lot growing up. My parents tried to get custody of them and lost and...

They were very strung out on drugs, alcohol, abusive issues. I actually lost the younger one to overdose in February of this past year. The other one I still haven't really seen. I don't really see, I didn't see either of them very often because my parents tried to kind of protect me from that. But because of that situation, my house was a very dangerous place. And so they would call it.

chronically be unsafe people at our house. I would see my siblings shoot her and up their arm, die, come back to life like repetitively. And so I really just like was kind of always in this type of environment where I thought that everybody's life was like this. And I was just always told, you know, somebody has it worse and you know, we have God and we're Christians, so we're thankful, which is totally true that I'm a Christian and I'm thankful when somebody has it worse.

but also it kind of invalidated that what I was experiencing was traumatic and I didn't get that. So all of that was when I was 14, I developed a eating disorder and exercise addiction. Just that was my coping mechanism. And so it really wasn't until I turned 21, I had started college, God broke my foot. I always say that, but God broke my foot and freed me from my addictions.

David Heflin (02:50)
All right.

Amber Ginter Johnson (03:16)
but it really didn't stop the chaos in my house. And I realized that I was trying to cope in an unhealthy way. And so when I went to college, I graduated when I was 23. And that's really when I started having full on panic attacks and pretty severe anxiety where I would almost blackout while I was driving.

I was diagnosed with 10 plus physical and mental health issues as soon as I graduated college. So that was kind of like growing up. just, I think because I had such suppressed trauma and emotions and things that I didn't deal with at the time, then it decided to just erupt in a multitude of physical and mental health issues.

David Heflin (04:00)
Wow. Well, that's a lot. I you've been through a lot through the very, you know, very early in your life. And I did appreciate you talking about that cliche that sometimes people will say, you know, someone always has it worse because I hear that a lot too in the chronic illness ministry. And a lot of times people tell themselves that like they can't even validate their own suffering, their own pain that they're going through because they feel that it would be wrong. They've been taught that it would be wrong.

You know that if I say how bad I'm doing, someone's going to look poorly on my faith or something to that effect. And so we really kind of create a church culture sometimes that will not validate people when they're in a state of suffering, whether it be physical or mental or both. And so I wanted to ask you about that because I know that there was a point where you sought some resources for mental health from a Christian perspective and you weren't able to

you weren't able to find anything. So I just want to ask why you think that is. What's the problem there? There's lots of resources for so many other things. Why not that? And I'm curious if you've seen more resources have come available in recent years.

Amber Ginter Johnson (05:14)
Definitely when I first sought out help for my mental health, so I actually didn't really reach out for help until I graduated. So until I was around the, think, I believe I was 23. And I just remember.

thinking like I'm a Christian, the church should be the first place that I'm able to go to find the type of help that I need. And so when you ask like, why do I think that I'm not able to find it? I think it's like the chicken before the egg problem. And I think that mental health, unfortunately, I was just talking to my husband about this is still seen as this taboo issue that everybody's like, scared to step on, you know.

eggshells and they're like walking around carefully because they don't want to upset someone or they don't want to say the wrong thing from the pulpit or in the church but at the same time we're doing such a disservice to people because you know I've seen people talk from the pulpit about addictions you know with drug and alcohol or I've seen them talk about

lust or pornography or really serious issues, but when it comes to something about that mental health issue, just everybody freaks out. And so I know that when I looked for resources, there definitely wasn't anything that would have been in 2019. And if I was given anything, it was the people saying like, let me just pray with you. Are you reading your Bible? Are you engaging in spiritual disciplines? Are you?

volunteering enough, like all these things as if like I wasn't doing the good spiritual disciplines that you're supposed to do as a Christian. And I think that, you know, besides people being kind of afraid of it now that we are talking about it more in 2024, I believe I think that there's less fear of discussing it, but there still are.

awesome resources. And if there are resources being provided, they're either secular resources being provided, like here's just a regular counselor you can go to, or here's some weird yoga foo foo practices to engage in. And so we're creating, we're continuing to feed and create this disconnect between, I guess what sometimes people say like what is

secular and what is holy when the reality is God has given us resources that are practically unbiblical. It doesn't have to be such this like crazy divide. and definitely, I don't know, I think some of it also stems back to the history of mental health in the book that I'm writing.

There's a section that I just talk about, hey, like, what are the terms? Like, what should we actually call these things with us? And we talk about why we should call it a mental illness instead of a mental disorder and the stigma that comes from that. I believe a lot of it does stem from that history where people...

that did have mental problems were literally seen as crazy and they were seen as purely mental issues. And that's why the term mental illness is more acceptable because it acknowledges that mental health is a whole body, just like we are whole people created of our thoughts and our emotions and our feelings, as opposed to just, it's just in your brain. You're just crazy.

David Heflin (08:31)
Sure. So use the word illness kind of brings the validity or kind of offers a validity to what people are going through that like says, not just all in your head. It is an actual illness, just like we would treat other illnesses. So I think that is helpful. You mentioned some of the advice sometimes you would be given, you know, from people at church when if you would try to reach out or ask people for help. And a lot of times it was trying to put it back on you. You know, you need to

pray more or do this more, more Bible study, you know, whatever, more believing this particular scripture. You mentioned, I read in your stories, I think on your website about people saying, give your worries to God. And so I wanted to ask, how are these kinds of cliches, because that's what I think they are, how are they more harmful than they are helpful?

Amber Ginter Johnson (09:25)
Those types of cliches are extremely damaging because there are a lot of Christians that I believe are true Christians that are reading their Bible. They are praying. They are doing all the right things that they're supposed to, and yet they're still suffering. And I think that the damage is coming in because it's making people that are like that truly question their sanity. They're questioning

Not only their mental state, but then they're questioning their faith. I think that we're seeing this a lot in 2024 with people who are either stepping away from the faith completely or they're like picking their faith apart and they're trying to kind of Re compartmentalize it together. They're deconstructing. They're doing all these things when the truth is that

these are Christians that are already doing the things they're supposed to be doing and they just need somebody to validate it. They need someone to give them a real practical answer instead of just go read this Bible verse and just pray more. So I think that they are more harmful because the church is supposed to be the place that we are supposed to go as the body of Christ. We're supposed to escalation six. I think it's Galatians six to talk talks about bearing one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ and like

David Heflin (10:43)
Mm-hmm.

Amber Ginter Johnson (10:45)
If we are just telling people these cliche answers, are honestly, we're no better than the Pharisees that are just like, you just, need to tie this amount and you need to stick to the law and you need to do this. And then Jesus, you know, does something crazy like heels on the Sabbath and they go ballistic. And so I think that we as Christians need to give better advice to people that are suffering than just make them question. I do want to say that the caveat is like, obviously there are people that

will approach that type of cliche and hear the complete opposite and think like, well, I don't need to read my Bible at all. I don't need to pray. God's not going to help me. Obviously, that's not true. I'm a Christian. believe that prayer is essential. believe that having a community of believers to support you is essential. And going to church and doing all those things are great. They're very necessary components of

David Heflin (11:23)
Mm.

Amber Ginter Johnson (11:39)
spiritual discipleship and growing in our relationship with Jesus. And I think that the problem comes when we kind of see that as legalism and instead of asking God, hey, Lord, like, what am I supposed to do practically? We're almost becoming like confined by these things. And I heard this story when I was in high school and it's like a really age old story, but it's a story of like,

this man that's like drowning in a flood and this little boat comes by and it's like, hey, you're going to get in the boat. And he's like, no, like I'm praying. Like God's going to rescue me. So the guy goes by and then like 20 minutes later, now the water is up to like his nose and like a lifeboat is thrown out to him or like the buoy. And he's like, no, man, I'm good. Like I prayed God's going to rescue me. And then eventually the guy drowns and he goes to heaven.

And he's like, man, God, I thought you were going to rescue me. And he's like, well, I sent you a boat, and I sent you a life thing, and then I sent you a buoy, and you just didn't take any of it. So I know that's a silly example, but I always think of that when people give those types of cliches and when we think we just need to keep telling people, just praying and reading the Bible is going to magically like, you know.

heal it because I'm not in charge of how God heals and how God answers things and sometimes sometimes he does feel like that. Most times he doesn't but sometimes he does.

David Heflin (13:07)
Sure. Yeah. Well, thank you. And you mentioned, you know, obviously the importance of the church validating people that are going through these kinds of struggles. But you've also mentioned the word practical several times as you were sharing. so I wanted to ask something along those lines about what church leaders could be doing and churches could be doing that that can make a real difference for those struggling with mental health. If they want to be practical in some way, they don't just want to

You give a cliche and they want to be caring and compassionate. What are some ways they can go about doing that? How can the church be better in this?

Amber Ginter Johnson (13:45)
I think that's such an important question. I believe that this is also challenging to answer because we kind of can't expect pastors to also be trained mental health experts. And so that's where I keep using the word practical. I think it's being able to A, talk about things from the pulpit and even just acknowledging the difference between, you know, if you're going over a passage on anxiety, like being able to say like,

Hey, like this is what Jesus says about worldly anxiety, but for those of you struggling with clinical disorders, this means X, Y, Z. And just being really explicit about, you know, the difference between people who struggle with a worldly view of that versus, no, this is a clinical issue that I can't just stop worrying. I think...

if you're unable to talk about it from the pulpit, think creating resources on your church website or that you hand out or that you have on hand such as, hey, here's a list I've compiled of trusted counselors that you could talk to, maybe even in the church that there's a list of books and podcasts and resources that you personally have checked out. That's actually what I created on my website as like the freebie for when you sign up because I was tired of reading.

podcasts and listening to stuff and then being like, that's not helpful. Like, what is that? So I've kind of filtered that because I think that we need a variety of resources besides just books. We need podcasts and videos and all sorts of stuff. And I also think if a pastor or someone who is a leader in a church is wanting to really help, think if you didn't grow up in it or you didn't have experience, like becoming aware, becoming informed, even though I

live through all the trauma and the experiences that I did. I actually got trained over the summer by the AACC in mental health coaching. I don't necessarily plan to coach at this point in my life, but I just wanted to learn more. And so that's a super easy, simple way. I think it costs like $30 to be able to learn.

what the people in the congregation are going through and it gives you practical steps, things like here's how to teach deep breathing, here's how to teach journaling and using a feelings wheel and processing your emotions. And the great thing is it is from a biblical perspective because it's the American Association of Christian Counselors, so it's very reputable in my personal opinion and from the resources that I've sorted. And I think that that's like an awesome thing that anybody can do just to be informed. Of course, there's other programs like

Mental Health First Aid USA or the National Council for Mental Wellbeing, those all offer really like cheap or free or low cost programs that are like just a couple hours where you can at least become informed.

David Heflin (16:40)
Well, I'd to link some of those in our show notes for people. So if you're listening, you're driving, don't worry about trying to write those down. We'll, I will put them in the show notes. You can go back and see them. And obviously we're going to link your website as well, Amber. And, you know, I can speak from the perspective of a pastor because I've been one for, you know, 20 years and I've tried to have a compassionate response to people that are going through mental health struggles. And I've had some of my own that developed later after I was dealing with chronic illness.

certainly increase my empathy in that regard, but still it can feel overwhelming, you know, how I'm actually going to help people. And so I really like the emphasis on connecting people with resources, connecting people with ministries that specialize in that or focus on that in order to help get them that, you know, some practical resources, some practical assistance that they really need. And, know, and I think that's something instead of us trying to take that on, Hey, I'm a pastor. got to solve.

your problems. that's no one's meant to bear that kind of, that kind of pressure. No church leader is, and none of us can help with every single type of issue, but we can get connected to people like you in this particular area. I think that people are struggling with and make a help, make a connection there that will really help people. So I appreciate that perspective. as you know, in broken amended, we typically, you know, focus on, you know, people that have physical health conditions, but

Really, it's for anyone that's hurting in any way because there's so much overlap there. But our particular area of we call expertise or focus really has to do more with the chronic pain and chronic illness side of things. And I know that this is something that you have has come into your life as well. You mentioned when you broke your foot, but I know you've had some other health issues that have made an impact on your life. I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what you've been through with that and how that's

impacted your outlook on things.

Amber Ginter Johnson (18:41)
Yeah, and I also wanted to piggyback on what you said about empathy. I just think that that's so valuable, especially as you said, like as being a pastor and having experience with that, because like you said, we can't, we can't expect pastors to wear like 1400 hats. I used to be a high school English teacher. I felt like I wore 17 hats in one day. And it was just really like overwhelming because I couldn't be, you know, a teacher and a counselor and a therapist. So I just want to say that I really affirm that and that empathy is so

so valuable and we always say, you we will pray for people and we support them, but if we can point them to the people that can really help them, that's what's going to change lives. I think in regard to your question about...

physical health issues, definitely. When I graduated college and I started seeking counseling for the first time, was honestly what led me to it was not only the having panic attacks and blacking out was part of it, but I got really sick. Very similar to my dad, kind of like almost overnight situation. I went from being very active, I ran a dance team and I was a pretty big runner like every day. And so I was very,

And then I started having pretty severe stomach pain. So I would be in the ER nearly every other week to every month. And it was just, we don't know, like something's wrong. Like, I don't know, everything's fine. You get diagnosed with a couple of things. They give you some medicine. Nothing's really better.

David Heflin (20:04)
Wow.

Right.

Amber Ginter Johnson (20:13)
and so that really went on. I still have stomach issues. So that's been six years ago now. We're still trying to figure out what exactly is going on with my stomach. But in the middle of all the stomach stuff, I started having really excruciating periods, which I know a lot of people is like, my gosh, let's have you to talk about, but, really, really excruciating and kind of had the same, reaction as when I looked for help for mental health. Like it was a lot of like, that's just in your head. Like,

like your anxiety is making your stomach hurt or you're having bad cramps, whatever. And every person that I saw, every doctor just dismissed it. They were like, you're just normal. Everything's fine. And I was like, this is okay, whatever. So I actually stopped looking for help for that for probably about a year or two. And then one day, my husband now, he was my boyfriend at the time, we were

David Heflin (20:53)
Hmm.

Amber Ginter Johnson (21:09)
at a local museum about an hour from my house. And normally to get through the pain, I have to take 800 milligram ibuprofen three times a day. So I space it out, you know, every eight hours. And I had gotten up that morning, I thought, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm fine. I'm not gonna take it. Cause I'm just, that's how I am. I used to be very like fighter. Like I'll just, can do it without the meds. So we went to this museum and the pain got so severe that like,

David Heflin (21:19)
Hmm. Wow.

Amber Ginter Johnson (21:38)
He basically had to like kind of almost carry me to the car because I thought I was going to throw up and black out. then, so I was like, okay, this is really serious. So fast forward to 2023, I finally found a really great nutritionist and a good OB and a good surgeon. I was diagnosed with stage two endometriosis and then this past May in 2024, had it surgically excised. and it takes about six.

David Heflin (21:43)
Wow.

Amber Ginter Johnson (22:07)
more cycles to see if it's going to make a difference. yeah, that's just as that's mainly the physical stuff has been stomach stuff and then reproductive. But it was really validating when you finally have the operation and they're like, yeah, this isn't just in your head. Like we removed all these little spots everywhere. And I remember looking at the graphics. You could clearly see endometriosis kind of looks like these big brown blobs almost everywhere. And so

David Heflin (22:22)
Hmm.

Amber Ginter Johnson (22:35)
like they were very evident, like it was very much like, there's one and there's another one. so the stages don't represent the severity of pain. They just represent the severity of the coverage where the endometriosis or the endometrial tissue is found.

David Heflin (22:54)
It sounds like you're still on that part of your journey and maybe some things are better after the surgery. I hope we or will be as you find out more about how you're doing. But I hope they can also kind of get some understanding of the stomach pains and things that you've been through. And yes, I can be really frustrating when you struggle to get a diagnosis and when people suggest sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtle that it's your

You know, it's in your head in some way, which kind of overlaps with what we were talking about with, you know, mental health too, that the way sometimes people will view that. but I had a chance to go and explore your website before, you know, we had this conversation and I was intrigued because I saw that you have a ministry that focuses on dance. You've had different iterations of this in your adult life and, but that you, have a ministry and I would want to do if you could.

It's unique in my, I mean, I don't know of another ministry like that. I'm sure there are other ministries that use dance. I guess I don't know of a ministry that is helping people, particularly with mental health and those kinds of challenges that use this dance. Maybe I'm just ignorant of that, but this is the first one I've known about it. I was wondering if you could explain a little bit about that and kind of how your ministry works and how it is able to help people.

Amber Ginter Johnson (24:15)
Absolutely. Well, you are not in the wrong that you can't find another organization like that because I also don't know of another organization like that. When I was in college, well, sorry, let me back up. I started dancing when I was three, so dance has always been a huge part of my life. And I was new when I graduated high school. I was just like, man, I don't want to be done with dance. It's something that flows through me that I really enjoy. So when I...

David Heflin (24:22)
Okay.

Amber Ginter Johnson (24:45)
Let's see, I graduated high school, I went to a different studio, started competing, and then in college I decided, you know what, I really want to form something for...

more of like a kind of young adult age group and that is specifically like Christian dance. And so I led some teams throughout my young adult years. And then when my husband and I got married last year in 2023, I remember just feeling this longing for dance because it had been a really long time since I had actually been able to. We got hit with COVID and that kind of took out the group I had before. And my husband was like, do you think that you'd want to start another

adult dance ministry group and I was like, absolutely not. And he's like, are you sure? Like, I really think you should pray about it. And I was like, okay, I'll pray about it, whatever. So I prayed about it and it just kind of fell into place where I was in that part of my ministry with writing where I really zoned in on I wanted to write about physical and mental illness. And then I thought, well, you know what, maybe I can start an organization. You know, it's not an official nonprofit yet, but

that represents the same thing through dance. So I talked to my husband. He's like, I think that's cool. And then God kind of literally just would like provide people. It was very crazy. Like I'm not used to kind of God interacting that way, but I remember I hadn't even told anybody what I was gonna do. And so people from our church started coming up to me and they're like, yeah, so I heard that you dance. And I'm like, no, this is gonna go one of two ways. They either like dance or they think it's demonic.

Like I've, that's just kind of what I grew up with fighting. so, God just really brought people into our group. And so today, I think this is our second year running it. It's called Light in the Darkness Adult Dance Company, or Adult Dance Ministry. And yeah, we exist to shine the light of the gospel through, dance, through signing, singing, anything aesthetic, to represent physical and mental health struggles specifically.

David Heflin (26:23)
Yeah.

But yeah, I understand.

Amber Ginter Johnson (26:53)
When we have the opportunity to do outreach, that's what we exist for. We exist to do outreach. So last, well, I guess this past summer, we had the opportunity to go out of state at this huge dance conference. And so we got to kind of create like a 15 minute show. We shared our testimony about physical and mental health struggles. And then each number that we pick, we try to represent some type of physical or mental health ailment through that. So.

Sometimes our song choices are a little bit different. So we did this song, what was that called? It's by NF and it's called Happy. It's pretty dark, but it talks about struggling kind of with depression and how, you know, if I was just happy, like life would be this way. And so we'll start with something like that. And then we kind of get a into other songs that go with Let the Light In, which is by Francesca Battistelli and about

Going beyond just hey, I'm just gonna pray about it's like no like I'm being real with my feelings and telling God how I feel and I'm gonna seek holistic healing for that. So we really emphasize sharing that because I think that Besides writing I think that people can connect to dance and to aesthetics then this December actually every Yeah, every December or every like Christmas time we go to a local mall it's

pretty big mall, it's like an hour from me, a couple thousand people there every day, and you get to create a show in the middle of the mall and just anybody who's walking by can stop, it's free. And so we always create like an hour show and we'll read scripture, we incorporate verses that specifically speak to physical mental ailments, and then again all of our song choices for anything relate to some type of suffering, whether it be personally or just that we know other people are struggling with.

David Heflin (28:47)
I think that's amazing. I don't have any of that ability myself, but I appreciate how people who do can use that in a way to glorify God, to be an encouragement to others. I think ideally we all want to be able to use the things that God has given us as far as an ability or a passion, a gift in some way to be able to be a blessing to others.

I think that's an amazing thing. was wondering, so for a lot of us that don't live and you're out East somewhere, where do you live?

Amber Ginter Johnson (29:21)
Ohio.

David Heflin (29:23)
That's not East, I mean, it's kind of East. It's East of Oklahoma, but up Northeast from us. Okay. All right. Well, so if people can't see this in person, have you guys put any of this on YouTube or your website where they can see some of these dances?

Amber Ginter Johnson (29:24)
You

Absolutely. So I try to update my website if it's just AmberKentert.com but there's a specific dance ministry page so I put videos on there and then if you go there there's also a YouTube page for me personally and we always post all of the... we post the finished product.

David Heflin (29:56)
Yeah, well I think that's awesome. I hope people will check that out and you know, maybe it's certainly something I will want to point people to toward from that are in our ministry, Broken Amended, as something that could be an encouragement to them as well. And I know God will continue to bless that. You mentioned a book you were working on. Can you tell us a little bit about what's in the works for you there?

Amber Ginter Johnson (30:19)
Yes. So I think I mentioned earlier, I come from an education background, so I actually just spent the past five years teaching high school English. And I've always known that I was supposed to be a writer, but I didn't really know what I was going to write about. And I can tell you that the last thing that I thought I was going to write about was physical and mental health issues. So that's how I always know the Lord is up to something. I feel like he has this mischievous grin on his face sometimes. So I knew I had

David Heflin (30:39)
Hmm.

Amber Ginter Johnson (30:50)
one more year this past year to fulfill a like a grant contract that I had to teach or I had to pay back a bunch of money. So when my husband and I got married, I knew that I had that one year. And so my husband was like, okay, like this is your last year. And I just was like, not so sure it was my last year. Like I, I was ready, but I was also really scared. And so the more that I prayed, the more that I talked to my husband and talked to my friends. I was just like, okay, I'm done. Like I've got to be done. So.

Fast forward to May, I put in that I was not coming back. I told my class the next day and then the very next day was when I had stage two surgery for endometriosis. And then two weeks later, I went to a writing conference, started pitching and had kind of the opposite response that I had three years ago. I tried to kind of pitch a book by myself and...

Did not go well. I got really rejected. didn't write for a couple months because I was so just like upset and I got kind of the opposite feedback this time. It was like everybody was interested and then two weeks after that I went to another writing conference and there was a particular agent there that kind of all my writing mentors and friends were like you really need to go talk to so-and-so. I'm like you don't understand like I pitched to this agent three years ago. I was rejected. I don't want to talk to them and leave it to God to be

who he is. And so it was like, Amber, you need to go talk to this agent. And I was like, okay. So I pitched this agent and they actually offered me a contract on the spot, which like, I don't mean that in a gloating way at all, except to like boast in the Lord because I was just like flabbergasted. Like I was just like, what the heck is going on? So I actually left that meeting. I came home. I prayed for like,

the next month because I was just like, I don't know. And then, yeah, so I signed with that agent and my first book should be traditionally published hopefully in the next year or so. We're almost done with what needs to be sent out to publishers, but the tentative title is called Tired on the Inside, Finding Hope When You Aren't Okay. And essentially, it's what we've been talking about today. Thank you. It's essentially what we've been talking about, which is providing

real resources for young adult Christians struggling with their mental health. It's not just going to tell them to pray and read their Bible more. And so I go over six different dimensions of wellness that I believe impact our mental health. And so we're going to explore not only how those impact you, but like practical ways that you can implement them. You can make them better and kind of the whole catchphrase is that having anxiety doesn't mean you lack faith. It means you're human and you can fill that in with

Having depression doesn't mean you lack faith. means you're human. Having a mental or physical health issue doesn't mean you lack faith. means you're human. And so the whole idea is to just really validate what people are going through while also providing those practical resources that I definitely didn't have growing up. And I really could have used those.

David Heflin (33:58)
Yeah. So is that kind of the reason you focus more? I think you mentioned young adults is because kind of reflecting back on your own journey and what you would have wanted at that particular stage of life, or is it more because we just see this increase of kind of mental health, anxiety and all that going on with Gen Z kind of both?

Amber Ginter Johnson (34:19)
Definitely both. think I've always kind of had a heart for that age group. I taught high school, but primarily I taught sophomores for all of all of my five years of teaching were sophomores. And I think that definitely both we do see in the statistics that 75 % of like the first signs of mental

illness show up by the time that you're 25 and 50 % of them show up when you're 14. And so I think when I'm writing and the reason that I do this is because I'm looking back at like, wow, when I was 14 years old and all of this stuff happened, I was one of those 50%. But I didn't get the help that I needed until I was almost 25. And now it's, you know, that 75 % and so it's kind of like, I don't know if I want to use the words that I see myself as like a big sister.

but my demographic is 18 to 30 and I'm 28. So I kind of see myself as like, I'm still trying to navigate this journey, but I'm willing to hold your hand through the process. I'm willing to walk with you through it, not because I have all the answers, but because I'm willing to be with you while we find them and that you deserve more than just a pat bandaid or a prescription that's not actually gonna help you.

David Heflin (35:44)
Well, I really appreciate that. I'm a parent of three Gen Z kids myself. you know, at times I talked about it earlier that we can feel overwhelmed. could feel overwhelmed as a pastor. Well, I certainly feel overwhelmed as a parent sometimes too, and knowing best how to help, you know, help my kids, you know, as they navigate all kinds of different challenges and certainly including things related to, you know, mental health and their wellbeing in that regard. And so it's

It's just exciting for me to know about another resource where I can point them toward. Really, as I again reflect on it as a pastor and as a parent. So I appreciate that very much. And was wondering, are there any other projects you're working on or other resources you would want to tell us about that are on your website? What else would you like this audience to know from you?

Amber Ginter Johnson (36:36)
Absolutely. Yeah, well, I wanted to say I'm glad that you have kids that can relate because that 18 to 30 period is so hard to go through. I mean, I'm still not through it. And then just like this whole adulting thing, half the time you're feeling things and you don't know why you feel things and then you're just mad and like confused. So it's just definitely an age group that really needs it. Everybody needs mental and physical health help. But specifically this generation is at a major crisis going on.

I think for resources that I can provide, if you go to my website, amberguenther.com slash gift, you can sign up for my email list and I send monthly emails that kind of go over whatever I wrote for that month or places that I was featured writing. But when you do that initial sign up on that page, you'll get that resource that has validated like podcasters books.

influencers resources that I myself specifically have used. For example, on there, there's a book called I love Jesus, but I want to die. It's by Sarah Robinson. I absolutely love this book. It sounds morbid, but it is like the best books that I've ever read for someone understanding mental health and actually going through the suffering. And then on my website, I'm in the process of creating guided audio meditations so people can

Stay tuned for that. There's a tab for it. I just don't have them up to sell yet, but basically those are going to be like five to eight minute meditations that will walk you through some of those practical things I mentioned earlier, like deep breathing, journaling, grounding, reflecting, just in kind of a very calm state with some background music so that when you're in the middle of an anxiety attack or a middle of a panic attack or you are

depressed, it's just a couple minutes to try to get you out of that funk and I don't prescribe prescriptions and I don't prescribe meditations, but it's something that is a tool in the tool belt that I'm willing to try to see if that helps you and then yeah, the other things on my website are just like my blog where you can read all sorts of specific mental and physical health.

Categories, so there's like a category for your body, but there's also a category for your mind or your emotions or relationships and things like that

David Heflin (39:03)
Yes, and I got the chance to look at that too and I appreciated the way you kind of had those divided up and real easily for people to navigate there on your website. I want to mention too, you know, certainly our most of our listeners, I think are familiar with Diamond's conference because I've spoken, I'll say at it or in it a couple of different times. And I know you have as well, Amber, and you're going to be speaking again in January. And I think it's

I'm not looking at a calendar right now, but something like 26th, 27th, January, 26th or the 28th of January, something like that. know it's real. I know it overlaps with my son's 21st birthday. So I know the 27th is involved. so we want to, and of course we'll, you know, it'll be providing kind of links or relevant things to point people to how they can register and get information about that conference. But I think it would be really great. And I want to start.

promoting that here in this episode so that people can be aware of that. And that's not really that far away. You know, here in just a few months we'll be at Christmas and then it'll be here. Amber, thank you so much for joining us on In the Seams. I think the information that you provided is very helpful, very practical like we talked about, but I also think your story is inspirational. And I know a lot of people will be uplifted in just hearing about your story.

and hearing what God has been doing through you and through the pain and the struggle that you've been through and how that has overflowed to bless many, many people. so grateful for that and thank you for being with us.

Amber Ginter Johnson (40:45)
Thank you so much for having me, David. And also piggyback on the conference, the Diamonds Conference, everyone definitely check it out because Sarah is amazing, one of my most humble friends and she does an incredible job hosting that conference. And it also overlaps with my birthday. So it's the weekend of January 24th, like 24th, 25th.

David Heflin (41:11)
okay. Gotcha. Well, yes, Sarah Willoughby and has done just an amazing job bringing this conference. I guess I should say for people that are not familiar with Diamond's conference, it is a virtual conference for people that are dealing with chronic pain, chronic health conditions and chronic illness and all this and allows us to come together virtually. And it really is a sense of community despite the fact that

For the most part, we can't see each other. There's kind of the chat that's going on during the session and everything, but we do get to see the speakers. It's a video conference and I think it brings together, I don't know, probably 12, 15 different speakers. There's some Q &A or panels that are involved as well. And I know the theme this year has to do with courage. I don't remember the exact wording of it. Do you, Amber?

Amber Ginter Johnson (42:04)
I do not. It's something with courage.

David Heflin (42:07)
Something with courage. Yeah. So they always have a really great theme for, you know, for the diamonds conference. And so, and it's, it's free. That's another thing we should mention is you can register. If you attend it while it's happening, then it's free. I think if you are not able to attend it live, they do charge a fee to be able to watch the sessions later. But if you can be a part of it that weekend, even if you can just be a part of a few sessions, I know it will be a blessing. So I certainly want to be

pointing you in that direction and certainly want to welcome, or I'm sorry, want to thank all of our listeners for being with us for this episode. Remind you also to go to brokenamended.org, find out what's going on with our ministry, our support groups, different efforts that we're trying to make around the world to connect hurting people to Jesus and to each other. And thank you for being with us.