1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:22,320 Welcome to In the Seams, a podcast by Broken and Mended. And now your host, David Heflin. 2 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,920 Well hello and I want to welcome you back to In the Seams. And I'm very excited today 3 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:33,400 to have Aren and Trina with us. And I'm going to ask you guys to pronounce your last name 4 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,720 because I don't want to mess it up. So what is it real quick guys? 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,280 It's Bahadourian. 6 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:44,880 Bahadourian. Okay. Well thank you for that. And I want to give a special shout out to 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:51,440 Anna Kowlessar who connected me with Aren probably about a month or so ago. Anna is 8 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:56,260 the founder of PeopleHope, which is I understand is a ministry that has served its purpose 9 00:00:56,260 --> 00:01:01,420 and they're kind of closing up at this point. But I'm appreciative to Anna and all that 10 00:01:01,420 --> 00:01:07,760 she has done for the chronic illness, chronic pain community. And I'm appreciative for her 11 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:14,760 connecting us. I want to say to our listeners that we are going to talk about some difficult 12 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:20,960 things. Of course, that is normally what we do in this podcast. We're always talking about 13 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:25,000 things that deal with mental health, things that deal with physical health. I want to 14 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:31,240 add a little bit of a trigger warning. We will also be talking today about grief and 15 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:36,000 the loss of a child. And so just want people to know that so they're not surprised or caught 16 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,920 off guard by that as we get into this. But I'm going to start a little bit before that. 17 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:48,200 And I want you guys to, so one of the things we want to talk about is chronic Lyme disease, 18 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:54,000 which I know Trina that you suffer with. And I want you to tell us a little bit about what 19 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,960 your life was like before that entered into the picture. 20 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:11,000 Yeah. So I had a pretty normal, I don't know what normal is, but a normal life. Aren and 21 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:20,040 I had been married for less than two and a half years. And I had moved to the States 22 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:27,400 from Australia after a long distance relationship. So I was still adjusting, settling into living 23 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:38,440 in California. And I would say I was a Christian. I thought of myself as a growing Christian. 24 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:45,560 I had little to no experience with any kind of personal real suffering in my life, I would 25 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:54,960 say. I'd had a pretty good life looking back on my childhood in teen years. And I would 26 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:02,240 say I was a bit naive and I thought I was a pretty strong believer at that time. Yeah. 27 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,460 So it was a time when we were still newly married. So all the kind of lightheartedness 28 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:12,160 that comes with that and then all the adjustments as well. So working through those things. 29 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:19,440 Yeah, that's where we were. And I was pregnant with our first son at that time. 30 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,440 And I would add... 31 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,440 Okay. So how much... 32 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,520 Sorry, go ahead. 33 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,000 I was just going to ask, how many years ago are we talking about when you were pregnant with 34 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,000 your first son? 35 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,960 So 2011. 2011, I was pregnant with our first son. 36 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,960 2011. Okay. 37 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:38,960 Yeah. 38 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:45,920 And I was going to say that I don't think we were kind of weaker Christians and now 39 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:53,160 we're stronger Christians. I think we were maybe just untested. I think matters of suffering 40 00:03:53,160 --> 00:04:01,160 were theoretical. We knew passages, we knew verses, we knew things about it, but we had 41 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,480 to walk through it in this way. And I think one of the things that was different in that 42 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:12,560 back then, we were maybe more prone to giving cliche and cute biblical answers to people 43 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:18,560 in suffering. So that's something that has shifted kind of before and after. 44 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:25,680 Okay. Yeah. Thanks for that clarification. And let me... Just because I want to make 45 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,000 sure... So I called you Aaron, but I think I heard her say Aren. Is it better to say 46 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,000 it that way? 47 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,200 Sure. Yeah, it's Aren, but either is fine. 48 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,800 Okay. Well, I like to get people's names right if I can. So... 49 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:45,600 It's pronounced like... Sorry. I was just going to say it's pronounced like registered nurse, 50 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:46,600 R-N. 51 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:47,600 R-N. 52 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:48,600 That's... 53 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:55,400 R-N. Oh, okay. Aren. Okay. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Thank you. So I want to talk a little 54 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:01,880 bit more too about your life, Trina, and you began to have some severe health issues. And 55 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,880 just for our reader's benefit, I heard a lot of this story on another interview that you... 56 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:12,200 A couple of different interviews that you have done, which was very helpful. And I know 57 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,400 that you mentioned, you start losing a lot of weight, like drastic amounts of weight 58 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,520 in a very short period of time and dealing with very severe fatigue and things of that 59 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:27,680 nature. And you were eventually diagnosed with Lyme disease in its chronic form. Obviously, 60 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:33,240 this is a life-altering diagnosis in situations. So I just wanted to let you describe how your 61 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:39,760 life changed and a corollary to that. And it speaks to Arren's point that he brought 62 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:47,280 up earlier, the untested versus tested experience in our walk with God. But I wanted to ask 63 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:53,440 you how your relationship with God was impacted after you experienced this life change. 64 00:05:53,440 --> 00:06:05,800 Yeah. It's so much. So trying to do it in a more concise way. In 2011, while I was pregnant, 65 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,600 I first started having some symptoms that were very weird, but we couldn't figure out 66 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,840 what was going on. I'd never been pregnant before. All the testing came back normal. 67 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:24,080 And then after our son Ezra was born, I started to just kind of get more and more worn out 68 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:30,840 and fatigued. And I was just weak. I was sick a lot, like back to back viruses. And by the 69 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:37,200 time he was one and a half years old, my health like completely crashed overnight. It was 70 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:49,160 bizarre while I was leading worship at a women's retreat. And so from that day, April in 2013, 71 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:57,620 I've never gained a full measure of health since that day. And so I began kind of being 72 00:06:57,620 --> 00:07:06,080 just unable to do normal things like any. Like I couldn't, at some point it was so bad, 73 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:12,880 I couldn't leave the house. I would try to walk. Like, I mean, I was young and even just 74 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:18,960 walking three, four houses down the street, I would be completely out of breath, on the 75 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:25,560 verge of passing out and Orin would have to like quickly get me back inside. So just bizarre. 76 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:38,600 Yeah, no energy and just really frail like a shell of myself. And so it was really difficult 77 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:47,560 because basically what happened was very quickly, my world began to shrink. And I was still 78 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,320 relatively new to the country and, you know, trying to still make friends and connect with 79 00:07:53,320 --> 00:08:00,840 people. And so that just died down so fast. And I found myself very alone. A lot of the 80 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:07,800 time I was by myself at home. Aren was working as a pastor. He was, he tried so hard to be 81 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:14,080 available for me and to me, but his job was really demanding and it was just, it was a 82 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:21,440 lot. And so, yeah, my life kind of became a fragment, it feels like of what it used 83 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:29,960 to be. And I couldn't take care of my then toddler, we had to enroll him into early like 84 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:35,480 preschool, which I'd never wanted to do. And so at two years old, Ezra starts preschool. 85 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,240 And my day consisted of literally getting him to the door at preschool, dropping him 86 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:48,120 off, even just walking him to class was like a feat, like an absolute feat. And then getting 87 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,720 back in the car, I would drive home, it was like a four minute drive, I would drive back 88 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:59,680 home and I would get into bed. I would set a timer for his pickup time from school. And 89 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:04,840 I would literally sleep the time the alarm would go off. I would drive back to school. 90 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:10,080 I would pick him up. I would bring him home. They would have fed him there. And I literally 91 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:15,400 would say, okay, now we're doing rest time in the afternoon. And I would put his mattress 92 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:21,160 on the ground, I would lie on the floor next to him. And I would knock out for like another 93 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:28,120 couple of hours. It was just like, it was unbelievable. And so it just felt like everything 94 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:34,600 just changed. And it just became very scary. This idea of like, what if this is what my 95 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,300 life is going to be from now on? Like, God, how is that possible? Like, what does that 96 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:45,540 even mean as a young mom? Like as a young wife? Like, I can't take care of my home. I can't take 97 00:09:45,540 --> 00:09:51,280 care of meals. I can't take care of my kid. Like, I don't know what that means, Lord. And 98 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:58,200 it just doesn't make sense to me. So everything was slower. I was just constantly exhausted. 99 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,720 And I think the physical exhaustion of it was linked to almost just like spiritual exhaustion 100 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:09,280 as well, like mental exhaustion and just this, like, I can't do anything. Like, I don't even 101 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:15,400 know what to pray. All I am praying is just help. Like constantly, I felt like from morning 102 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:20,480 till night, it was just like, please help. Please help. Like, everything is falling apart. 103 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:27,640 Like, please help, because it's all crumbling. And so I think throughout the long, I was 104 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:34,880 undiagnosed with severe sickness. So from 2013, it, when I, my health completely crashed, 105 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:41,080 it took two years for us to get my diagnosis of chronic Lyme disease from that point. And 106 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:48,720 so those two years were marked with severe anxiety, severe, like, it just felt like there 107 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:56,200 was a shroud of darkness over us. Feeling like continual, like unanswered prayer with 108 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:04,000 God, like feeling like we're knocking and it's empty. I think in A Grief Observed, C.S. 109 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,560 Lewis talks about this, this idea of like, but go to God when your need is great. And 110 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:14,280 this is after his wife has died and he's processing this tremendous grief he's going through. 111 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,880 And he says he's like pounding on the door and on the other side, it's just silence and 112 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:25,520 worse than that, that a door, like a key locking the door, like the sound of a key locking 113 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:32,120 the door. And it just, that season felt like that in so many ways. So there, there was 114 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:42,600 a lot of anger at times. There was a lot of confusion, a lot of questions that seemingly 115 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:51,160 had no answers. And what was happening, I think to both of us was all of the assumptions, 116 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:57,560 all of the maybe odd and kind of incorrect ideas I'd had about God or about the Christian 117 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:03,480 life, they were all coming up to the surface. And it was a lot trying to deal with that 118 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,120 and trying to address that and be like, do I actually believe this about God because 119 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,880 this is true of who God is in his word and in the Bible? Or is this just stuff I've brought 120 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:20,000 into, bought into because this is what people say about God, or this is what the church 121 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:26,680 I grew up at said, which isn't necessarily biblical and isn't necessarily accurate. 122 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:34,600 And so I was really, really wrestling with the goodness of God, like big time. 123 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:41,480 I think one thing to add when it comes to this kind of wrestling or being in a season 124 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,840 where these questions and assumptions come to the surface, one way to say it is in some 125 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:53,200 way, it seems our foundation for the Christian life was based more on the book of Proverbs 126 00:12:53,200 --> 00:13:00,480 than on Job. What I mean is, with Proverbs, the righteous will be blessed. And once when 127 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:07,760 I studied that, I counted about 15 to 16 different blessings the author speaks of for the righteous. 128 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:14,120 And so you start, if your Christianity is Proverbs only, you start developing this formula 129 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:21,280 that if I'm righteous, God is going to do his part to bless me. And in this season when 130 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:28,040 there was unexplained suffering, and okay, we believe God is there, there's no punishment 131 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,280 for sin that we're dealing with. So like, why is he going off script? Like what's happening? 132 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:38,800 The formula of Proverbs is falling apart. And that's years later when I and we studied 133 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:44,920 and looked at Job, then it made sense. It's almost like we needed Job and Ecclesiastes 134 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:52,720 alongside Proverbs. Or to comment on another wisdom literature, the Psalms, I think, is 135 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:58,960 what gave us words when we didn't have words, especially when it comes to lament. 136 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:59,960 Yeah. 137 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,440 Thank you for sharing that perspective. Yeah, go ahead. 138 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,480 Yeah, I think what was really hard, I think you said, and then kind of in getting the 139 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:15,080 diagnosis and everything, I think Aren and I both were praying, begging the Lord for 140 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:20,280 an answer, for some kind of answer. Like, Lord, can you just give these doctors wisdom 141 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,800 to figure out what is going on? And I think what was in the back of our minds was when 142 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:30,960 we finally know what it is, we'll be able to treat it. Or they'll tell us, you're going 143 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,840 to die, which I already thought I was going to die. At that point, I was so sick, I thought 144 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:40,380 I was dying. And it was almost like, at least we'll know. And then getting the diagnosis 145 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:45,280 of Lyme disease, I still remember the doctor telling me, well, now we know what it is. 146 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,040 And I was like, isn't that really good news? And he's like, no, not really. He's like, 147 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,360 nobody wants to have chronic Lyme disease. He's like, it's not good news because he's 148 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,440 like, there's no cure for Lyme disease. He's like, I can't guarantee you that you'll ever 149 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:06,840 be better. And I can even say that even if you work really hard and your body does recover, 150 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:12,560 you can completely relapse again. So he was just like, very, it was really sobering, I 151 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:18,000 think, just even getting the diagnosis. And so one of the things that Aren kept telling 152 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,960 me that was really helpful, I think that we really leaned on was God's sovereignty and 153 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:33,240 that there was no rogue tick in the universe. So that everything is under God's control. 154 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,440 And if I had, which we figured out, you know, if I had been bit by a tick years ago, that 155 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,600 God's hand was over that. And the fact that we never knew about it, and I never got treatment 156 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:52,840 for it and all of those things. And so I think it was a very demoralizing season overall. 157 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:59,120 I think that's the one word I could use to describe all those years. Even in being diagnosed 158 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:05,960 and seeking treatments, we, every single treatment that was presented to us, we agonized over, 159 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:13,040 we prayed over, we were very, tried to be very wise in how we were approaching everything. 160 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:19,320 And we went through seven or eight different kinds of treatments and all of them failed. 161 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,720 And with all of them, we really sought the Lord and believed that in different clear 162 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,360 ways he was guiding us to that next treatment. And so it was demoralizing. It was demoralizing 163 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:41,640 for our faith. Yeah. And another way in which I think this season, it just changed or impacted 164 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:48,800 my relationship with God was it really led to me having to rethink my identity in Christ 165 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:58,440 and what that really is aside from any ways that I could be useful and of service to Christ. 166 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:07,720 Like what it meant to actually just be Christ's, belong to Christ and enjoy Christ or rest 167 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:20,360 in Christ and know that I can't add to my worth in him. I can't do things to be a better 168 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:26,480 or greater impactful Christian. Like it just, it was very, because I think up until that 169 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,800 point and for both of us, we've grown up in church, we've grown up doing ministry, being 170 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:37,880 involved in ministry. And it was, we kept saying, we have been sidelined. Like that is what it 171 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:44,720 felt like, that God just benched us. And so it was a season of having to come to terms 172 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,960 with, okay, like, okay, we're on the benches and this stuff that God's doing here, like 173 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:59,400 God's doing a deep internal surgery here on the benches. Yeah. 174 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:06,280 Wow. You know, I think it is, you know, such a transition in a way of thinking when we 175 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:12,200 go from the idea that measuring our worth or value from what we can do and to think 176 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:20,080 that that's how God also evaluates us. Instead of what, you know, we see when Paul talks 177 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:26,080 about boasting in our weakness so that the power of Christ may rest in us. But to truly 178 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:32,000 experience weakness and to truly experience being unable to do what we think we want to 179 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:38,240 do or ought to do or even what we think God wanted us to do. I mean, it's a humbling experience. 180 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:45,800 So I appreciate you sharing that. I was curious during this time. So we're talking like 2013 181 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,400 as when was the diagnosis? 182 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,400 2015, April. 183 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:59,400 2015. So really, your health went downhill in 2013, kind of permanently, right? I mean, 184 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,480 in the sense of where you said you never regained a full measure of your health and in 2015 185 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:10,680 you were diagnosed. So in that two-year window of time, was there anybody in your life that 186 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:17,620 was able to come alongside you and to say anything like, well, we went through something 187 00:19:17,620 --> 00:19:22,680 similar or we kind of understand what you're going through? Did you feel totally alone 188 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,680 in this? 189 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:36,800 I think I felt pretty alone, I would say. I mean, I think Aren was the only one who 190 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:43,840 was there and he hadn't been through something similar, like really there. And I had a few 191 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:51,240 friends but again, I had moved here pretty recently before that. And I think my friends 192 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,240 didn't really know me. 193 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:53,240 From Australia, right? 194 00:19:53,240 --> 00:20:00,720 Yes, yes. So all my family and other friends were all back in Australia. So no, I did feel 195 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:07,960 really alone. I think where I kind of found some community, like a chronic illness community 196 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:15,440 of faith of some kind was more online actually on social media. I connected with some women 197 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:23,360 on there and that was really helpful because I found people who were going through similar 198 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:27,960 things and wrestling with the Lord through it as well. And that was really helpful. And 199 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:36,160 then again, once I actually got diagnosed in 2015, I really found women on Instagram 200 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:42,480 who were going through Lyme disease, who were believers and just really connected with a lot 201 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,480 of those women. 202 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:51,240 Well, it's good to hear that you're able to find some community and I know that being 203 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:58,320 able to find those online is such a valuable asset that we have in our time that we're 204 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:07,480 able to do that. Well, now you guys, ministry did come out of this ultimately and you guys 205 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:14,640 started a ministry called Remain. And certainly I recognize that not everyone that goes through 206 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,640 something like you've gone through chooses to start a ministry that's going to be a blessing 207 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,440 to others. So tell me, I want you to tell me a little bit about how you decided to start 208 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:30,240 Remain and what your aims were for that ministry in the beginning and at its inception. 209 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:35,440 Yeah, that's a good question. When it comes to ministry, the before Remain, let me just 210 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:44,880 make two quick comments. The hope or the assumption of ministry leaders is that we do ministry 211 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:52,300 from a place of strength, where our cup is full and we're able to pour into other people. 212 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:59,600 And we rely on our strength, we rely on our wisdom, we rely on our training. This illness 213 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:08,160 caused me now under, you know, God's providence and wisdom to operate purely out of a place 214 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:17,080 of weakness. So I can clearly count the number of times I would be in church Sunday morning 215 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:24,480 and I had nothing, I couldn't sing. Or I would lead, you know, college ministry and I would 216 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:32,320 be crying during worship. And there were times they kind of huddled and prayed over us. But 217 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,520 I operated out of a place of exhaustion, of like desperation, neediness. So that completely 218 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:45,600 was a shift in my understanding of ministry. And things like Paul in 2 Corinthians, which 219 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,080 is all about weakness. You know, there were things that I just hadn't really considered 220 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:55,520 before, but in our weakness, he is strong. The other thing I would say about ministry 221 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:02,600 in a season of sickness is that I wouldn't want anyone to feel pressure that they should 222 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:09,040 keep serving. There is a time of rest and there's a time of serving. There is a time 223 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:17,960 to pull away, for self-care, to heal, to be restored and all of that. So I think wisdom 224 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,700 is needed for the individual who is in such a situation and says, no, no, no, but like 225 00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:29,380 I need to keep serving. But for our own story, it was in the spring of 2020, I was finishing 226 00:23:29,380 --> 00:23:34,600 a small group that was just helping me understand my calling and spiritual gifts. And when I 227 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:40,880 was asked about what part I want to play in God's kingdom, just the word remain came 228 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,760 to mind. And I said, I want to remain and I want to encourage people to remain. And 229 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,100 I just kind of left that until a few months later, it came up in conversation and Trina 230 00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:57,560 had her own aha moment and she said, what if we start something and we would do this, 231 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:04,160 this and this. And that launched us into a season of praying and seeking counsel from 232 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:10,400 others and even speaking with another big missions organization about potentially working 233 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:18,840 under them. But it kept coming up and there was this sense of not that we have to or we 234 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:25,640 should we're obligated, but something kind of clicked in our hearts about where God wants 235 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:33,220 us to be. And I think we had shifted in such a way in our mindset, in her story of healing, 236 00:24:33,220 --> 00:24:40,360 and we were able to think about others and care for others. And so even before remain 237 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:46,880 became a thing, we already had all these ideas of what we can do. So we ended up launching 238 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:53,080 under our church, Armenian Christian Fellowship of Orange County in September of 21. And our 239 00:24:53,080 --> 00:25:02,880 desire was to come alongside people in suffering to encourage them to remain in Christ. And 240 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,760 as we thought about our values, for example, like what are we about? What's important to 241 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,640 us? We wrestled with that for a while. But there were four values that we realized were 242 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,440 already part of our conversations at home and part of our story, part of our journals 243 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:27,080 and for years. Number one, both and it's not you have like doubt or you have faith, right? 244 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:33,080 You lament or you rejoice. It's a both and number two, but God, we believe but God is 245 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:40,960 the greatest two word phrase in the Bible. It's a story of grace and hope. How much more? 246 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,280 We see that phrase a few times like in Romans, you know, if he saved us from sin and made 247 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:53,240 us children, how much more is he for us in Christ? There's this assurance, this abundance. 248 00:25:53,240 --> 00:26:00,600 And finally, already not yet. We believe that Jesus is King already, the kingdom is here 249 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:07,080 already, but not yet fully and finally. And so we're living in this overlap, in this tension 250 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:14,040 that we have life and hope now, but we're not there yet. The kingdom is not complete 251 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:19,840 yet. And so while we have life and hope now, we still have suffering and sickness. So sickness 252 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:27,480 or sorrow doesn't mean that Jesus is not King. You know, we're able to look at it very, very 253 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,680 differently. So that the framework it provided already not yet, how much more but God and 254 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:34,680 both and. 255 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:44,600 That, yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that perspective. And I want to mention for 256 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:52,000 our listeners that we will put the link to your ministry remain on our in the show notes. 257 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:58,800 Now I wish you know that that was where the story kind of ended. And I know that it's 258 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:04,240 not. So I want to talk about something, of course, very difficult. But after you started 259 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,760 Remain, not long after, as I understand it, another heartbreaking struggle entered your 260 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:16,480 life. And I was wondering what you could share with us about Isaiah Orion's and I understand 261 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:22,240 correctly call him Ori, a little bit about his story. And maybe the best way I could 262 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:28,280 think to phrase a question on this was how did you hold on to God's hand? You know, throughout 263 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,720 that that tragedy and that story? 264 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,600 Yeah, we so I think it was seven months since we launched the ministry and we were pretty 265 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:42,400 sure we're done with our own suffering. We graduated. We completed the cloud. And now 266 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:50,160 we can do ministry and seasons of anxiety, fear, depression, those we know, I guess the 267 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,560 one area that we hadn't experienced was sorrow and grief. 268 00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:02,040 But we had but not not not to that extent, not. I remember even just telling Aren when 269 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:07,640 we were launching remain that an area that we didn't really have experience was the real 270 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:13,040 grief of losing someone really close to you. Yeah, I actually said that. So that's just, 271 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:20,920 it just feels so bizarre. But yeah, so seven months after we started our ministry, we found 272 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:30,880 out I was pregnant with our third son. And yeah, we were really excited. The his big 273 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:43,720 brothers were thrilled. And we found out at our 12 week ultrasound appointment, that things 274 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:51,960 did not look okay on the ultrasound. And at that point, we didn't know if he was a girl 275 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:58,280 or a boy yet. We hadn't. And they were still waiting on like, the genetic testing. But 276 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:04,080 they said, even if it comes back clear, this baby is not okay. The doctor kept not the 277 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,360 doctor, it was not the doctor, it was the ultrasound tech who should not have been doing 278 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,680 that. But he kept showing us, Oh, look, did you see what's wrong with his brain? Let me 279 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:19,440 show you his brain again. It was just awful. And so we had this earth shattering 30 minute 280 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:26,760 ultrasound appointment with the technician walked out. And we were just like, I don't 281 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:42,040 know, I have never been more just shell shocked in my life. And yeah, it was a grueling 282 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:53,320 journey. So at 12 weeks, we found out that it seemed like he had trisomy 13, which is 283 00:29:53,320 --> 00:30:01,800 basically, so there's Down syndrome, which is trisomy 21. And then there are trisomies 284 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:09,160 that are more severe and cause more issues in the body. And so then it becomes trisomy 285 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:17,580 18 is the next most severe one. And then more severe than that is trisomy 13. A lot of babies 286 00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:23,560 with trisomy 13. Basically, in the medical world, all babies with trisomy 13 are considered 287 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:31,760 incompatible with life. And parents are given just the option to terminate basically. And 288 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:38,640 RN and I will aren't at the beginning of that appointment when the doctor was like, yeah, 289 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,600 this baby's not okay. Not doctor. When he's the technician said everything's bad. It's 290 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:50,560 awful his heart, his brain and, and Aren said, we're not we're not talking about termination. 291 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,320 We're not saying the word abort, like that's just not where we're going. And so he said, 292 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,860 Oh, that's fine. Well, I'll have the doctor wait for the results and get back to you. 293 00:30:59,860 --> 00:31:05,760 And so the doctor so it was this two week of like, what is happening? And then the doctor 294 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:17,560 calls us at 14 weeks, and tells me the results show that your baby does have trisomy 13. 295 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:28,360 And as a footnote, he's like, Oh, and it's a boy, by the way. And so and so we I don't 296 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:36,040 know, I don't know, we carried Isaiah, we named him Isaiah, Orion. Isaiah had always 297 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:44,400 been my favorite boy name. And it means God to the rescue. And in the Jesus storybook 298 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,200 Bible, we would always read the Jesus storybook Bible to Ezra when he was little. And when 299 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:56,400 Ezra was two and a half one day, he stood up in the public restroom on the change table 300 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,240 and he starts dancing. I'm really sick with Lyme disease. At this point, he starts dancing 301 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:07,200 on the change room, changing room table. I'd been in a wheelchair all day at a theme park. 302 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,620 I don't even know how but I was literally on a wheelchair the whole day. We're in the 303 00:32:10,620 --> 00:32:17,280 change room and he starts dancing and singing. My brother is so silly, so silly, so silly. 304 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:23,280 And I said to him, Ezra, you don't have a brother. And he said, Yes, I do, Mom. And 305 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:29,240 he's named Isaiah. And I said, What? And he said, Yeah, Mom, because Isaiah means God 306 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:36,600 to the rescue. And I just like completely burst into tears. And Ezra was praying, Ezra 307 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:42,480 was praying from the age of two and a half for a baby brother. And God answered that 308 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:49,120 in Kai, his brother, who was born seven and a half years when Ezra was seven and a half 309 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:58,440 years old. And who's a miracle in and of himself. And Kai's name means and, and God in Greek 310 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:09,200 or but God. So, um, so Isaiah was like, always on his way to us, it feels like. And so, yeah, 311 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:16,540 Isaiah means God to the rescue. And Orion is related to the constellation in the sky. 312 00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:22,640 But the reason is because in the book of Job, it talks about Orion a couple of times. And 313 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:33,480 in Job, in Job nine, verses nine and 10, it says the God who made the Orion and the fair 314 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,840 and the Pilates and it talks about those and then it says, who does great things beyond 315 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:48,720 searching out. And so we just felt like the mystery of Isaiah, Orion and his story and 316 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,840 all of that, we just felt like it was the perfect name for him. And then, and then we 317 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:58,800 just called him Ori as a family. That was his nickname, because one day I think I was 318 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,520 playing with the name Orion and then I was like, Oh, Ori sounds kind of cute. And I looked 319 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:11,640 it up and I saw that in Italian, Ori actually means golden and it means my little light. 320 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:20,200 And I was like, Oh, so Ori means my light. So affectionately we call him Ori. And so 321 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:27,320 Ori story did not look at all how we hoped and prayed and begged to the Lord for about 322 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:38,280 five months after we got the news about his condition. I don't think we weren't disbelieving 323 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,560 the doctor. So it's not like we had this blind faith that the doctors are wrong and everything's 324 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,480 going to be fine. We believe the doctors, we were seeing the ultrasounds, we were there 325 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:56,440 at every appointment. I think there was always a sliver of hope that what if God heals him 326 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,960 miraculously, like we're not saying it's not real and it's not happening, but God is God, 327 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,600 God is sovereign. God can do anything he wants to do. So we always had this hope that God 328 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:15,560 could make all the sad things in Ori story untrue. And that was not, that was not God's 329 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:27,080 plan. When you asked us how we held onto God's hand in that tragedy, I think we did. 330 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:35,080 I think we would say, yeah, we didn't hold on to him. He held on to us. And that's something 331 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,260 that I've shared in the past referring to our season of suffering. And I would tell 332 00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:49,000 people God's sovereignty is no longer a nice bullet point in a book on the shelf. God's 333 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,760 sovereignty is something we experience or it's something that's holding on to us rather 334 00:35:53,760 --> 00:36:01,120 than us holding on to him. Five and a half of the most horrific, anticipatory, grief 335 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:10,240 filled days, knowing, sorry, months, no, knowing that we're losing him. The time is going down 336 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:14,560 it's one month left, it's one week left, it's a few days left and there's nothing we can 337 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:24,480 do to stop that. There was something horrific about that. Especially the last Sunday, it 338 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:30,480 was Ezra's birthday and I actually baptized him and Tuesday was going to be Ori. But just 339 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:37,100 being at church two days before our son's death, I wept through most of the church service 340 00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:43,760 during worship. And I was just telling someone just a couple days ago, it meant so much that 341 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:51,200 people in church gave us room and permission to just cry. They came, they stood next to 342 00:36:51,200 --> 00:37:00,080 us, they hugged us, they listened. It felt so good to have a community walking with us 343 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:06,080 like that. As far as what did we hold on to? There was a few things that I feel like kept 344 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:14,200 coming up. Number one, Jesus is the high priest who intercedes for us. So Jesus as the high 345 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:20,520 priest not only does the work of atonement on the cross, he pays the price, but the priest 346 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:26,040 also intercedes and now that he is ascended to heaven, what's he doing at the father's 347 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,680 right hand? He's interceding for us. He's bringing our needs before him. And so when 348 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:37,460 you have those moments where I have nothing to say, I don't know what to pray anymore. 349 00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:42,400 It was comforting to know that he knows my heart. The other thing that I found really 350 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:52,040 comforting is that the resurrection is coming. Messages, passages, truths about Jesus, destroying 351 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:59,200 death, Jesus conquering evil, Jesus rising again in victory. All of that was life giving. 352 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:08,040 And I got so flustered that I would keep this as an Easter topic one Sunday in the spring 353 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:15,760 of the year. It became, honestly, resurrection became a daily issue. Daily I thought about 354 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:22,500 the death and resurrection of Christ. And that was really life giving. The other thing 355 00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:33,600 that I would say is the humanity of Jesus comforted me. I studied the story of John 356 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:41,560 11 in Lazarus and when it says that he was moved in spirit and he wept, that wasn't like 357 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,440 a sad Hallmark movie where he's just crying because he was going to raise him from the 358 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,200 dead anyway. But as I studied from several books, I looked at the Greek, moved in spirit 359 00:38:51,200 --> 00:39:02,160 means he was fuming in anger. So almost to say he was angered at death. And I think that 360 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:09,080 response did something for me. As it says in John 11, when Jesus saw her weeping and 361 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:16,320 the Jews who had come along him along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit 362 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:23,960 and troubled. So having Jesus like be angry with us and for us and weep with us, that 363 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:31,360 was something else that sustained us during that time. But it's interesting, we talked 364 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:39,280 about this yesterday. We're doing a seminar tonight at a church in North Hollywood and 365 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,880 they don't know us. So we're going to share a little bit about our own story. But as we 366 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:50,000 looked at our notes, we realized that there's nothing there about Ori yet. We haven't updated. 367 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:58,580 But he's not a footnote. He's not a by the way, I feel that we need another maybe two 368 00:39:58,580 --> 00:40:06,800 more testimonies that we need to write. So that our journals, our letters, what we shared 369 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:13,720 at the celebration of life service, there's a lot that we want to write down to honor 370 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:18,920 his life and memory. And there's a lot that we need. It's stored up in our hearts that 371 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:25,800 we want to say to people who are either given a diagnosis or who are in grief over the loss 372 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,360 of a child. So that's something for another day definitely. 373 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:38,720 Yeah. Yeah. I think it will mean a lot to a lot of people. Yeah. Go ahead, Trina. 374 00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:45,980 No, I was just going to say I do remember like walking out of that first appointment, 375 00:40:45,980 --> 00:40:53,600 like shell shocked. And I in my heart, I said like, God, like now you have completely broken 376 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:59,480 me. That was kind of my like, this is it. Like I thought, I just can't believe this 377 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:08,360 is your plan. And I really believe in my spirit at that moment that his response 378 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:17,160 was I am breaking you, but I'm breaking you open. I'm not breaking you down. And I'm still 379 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:23,080 working through what that means. But even from that very beginning, I know that God 380 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:29,600 was present with us in that story. I know that God was near us as we walk through Isaiah's 381 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:36,960 short life. And so I count I count Isaiah's life from when I was pregnant with him. So 382 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:43,360 I try to remember all the stuff that we did that summer before he was born as a family 383 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:48,900 that he was present at and he was involved in even though he was being carried in my 384 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:57,840 womb at that time. And so because we knew that likely if he did make it to term because 385 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,560 of the challenges and on the ultrasound, some of the stuff they found they so his case was 386 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:11,840 extremely severe. So try to me is a spectrum. And you can have a very mild case I found 387 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:17,240 on Facebook, I found a 39 year old man with trisome 13 full tries to me 13. And I 388 00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:22,560 was like, Oh, my God, like, just, I need to meet this man. But just so it's a spectrum. 389 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:31,360 But Isaiah's case was extremely severe. And we knew based on that I researched everything 390 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:39,060 I researched every condition he had. And the longest I had found a baby live with his specific 391 00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:45,440 condition with full intervention, like with full intervention was nine hours. And so I 392 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:54,760 knew that he didn't if everything held true on ultrasound, and God didn't intervene in 393 00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:00,000 miraculous way to heal him, I knew that his time was really limited. And that is how it 394 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:06,440 played out. And I mean, even till the end, I told the head of the NICU, we had an amazing 395 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:12,320 this was the Lord just watching over our entire experience with the hospital in California 396 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:19,440 and with the staff, and we had an incredible experience, a great team of doctors and nurses. 397 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:26,800 And I even said to the head neonatologist that if he came out, and for some reason, 398 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,960 his diagnosis did not hold true, or it was less severe than what he thought they needed 399 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:37,320 to fully intervene and just do whatever they could. And I said, You have to promise me 400 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:44,280 that. And like, and so then, I remember when he was born, it's dead quiet in the a lot, 401 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:50,360 and he came up to me and he put his hand on my shoulder. And he said, Mom, it's as we 402 00:43:50,360 --> 00:44:02,080 expected. And he was like, hearing. And so Isaiah lived for three hours. I say lived, 403 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:08,240 but he was kind of dying for three hours, in the sense of by the time they got him out, 404 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:14,600 his heart rate was 40 beats a minute. In the last hour of his life, his heart rate was 405 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:21,820 like five to 10 beats a minute. So like he was barely alive. He was not moving, not responding. 406 00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:31,120 He never cried. He never made a sound. He made one attempt to breathe that I saw, which 407 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:45,080 wasn't he didn't he Yeah. And so it just but in those three hours, he was so loved, like, 408 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:52,800 he was just treated with such dignity and respect. And we had one nurse who would just 409 00:44:52,800 --> 00:45:00,000 talk to him while he was alive. And even after he'd passed, Mr. Ori, my baby boy, like just 410 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:07,760 so sweet. And so yeah, I believe that even in his short life, he experienced nothing 411 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:16,120 but love. And then he went from our love into God's complete, perfect love forever. So it's 412 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:24,600 pretty good life. It was towards the end, our close friend, our pastor and his wife 413 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:30,800 were there. And we asked him to just pray. So he put his hand on Ori and he prayed and 414 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,880 then he finished with the Aaronic blessing. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the 415 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:39,720 Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May the Lord lift up his countenance 416 00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:47,360 upon you and give you peace. And right then, Trina said, he's starting to feel cold. And 417 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:55,760 that's when we knew he had passed. So Aaronic blessing is very meaningful. But what stands 418 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:03,240 out to me is right in those moments, Trina said she experienced a heavenly peace. The 419 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:13,720 room was quiet. We were at peace. We knew where Isaiah was. Another thing that I have 420 00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:27,240 to say is that before leaving a few days later, the social worker came in and just said that 421 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:34,680 this has opened up opportunities for me to talk about Jesus with others. People on staff 422 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:40,520 and the admin and the social services, they're asking questions. Who is this couple? What 423 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,680 is their faith? And she said, you need to know Ori has planted seeds of the gospel in 424 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:53,280 this hospital. That's what we heard as soon as we were leaving. And one of the prayers 425 00:46:53,280 --> 00:47:00,760 we had prayed for a while was God, his short life seems to have no purpose. May there be 426 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:08,120 purpose. Or may we be able to see a glimpse of that purpose in some way. And so that comment 427 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:14,920 from a fellow Christian to hear that there's conversations about Jesus going on, that did 428 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,160 something to our saddened hearts. 429 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:30,760 Yeah. I think along those same lines, something that you heard God speak to you, Trina, if 430 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:36,040 I got this quote right, you can correct it if I don't, but do you trust me to write him 431 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:45,160 a different story? Is that right? I don't know why, but that particular question is 432 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:51,880 just, the only word I could describe it was soul piercing. It just makes you think about 433 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:57,880 everything differently when it comes to value and worth and story and what stories look 434 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:04,160 like from God's perspective. So I appreciate you. Obviously that's a very intimate moment 435 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:09,240 between you and God. And I'm very glad that you shared it though with others because I 436 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:16,800 think that just a question has a fruit in it. But I wanted to ask you, how does that 437 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:23,160 question put into perspective how God values our lives and our stories differently than 438 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,600 we see in the world at large? 439 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:36,640 Yeah. I think that question, I sat with that question in the middle of the night for hours. 440 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,120 And I think what kept coming to me as well with that question was, you trust me to write 441 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:48,080 him a different story and different is not less than Trina. Different is not of less 442 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:54,840 value. And so that I think was very comforting because I kept looking at what was laid before 443 00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:03,800 me in walking through my son's life, my son's short life with him. And it just felt so unfair. 444 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:10,360 It just felt like he would be snuffed out before he had a chance to do anything. And 445 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:20,040 so I think what was the way, I don't know how it puts into perspective how God values 446 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:28,000 our lives, how God values our stories. Almost that if God is really God, if God is really 447 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:35,080 Lord over everything he has made and over the stories of everything he has made, then 448 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:41,800 can I trust him that his story, that person and the next person and this friend struggling 449 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:50,000 with this issue and that life that I believe got cut off too soon, can I trust that God 450 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:58,560 is over that and that in Christ for his people has good plans for their story, even if it 451 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:05,000 doesn't look like how I wanted it to look. And so I longed so much for this life that 452 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:10,840 I wanted for my third son, a story of health and coming home and growing up and being the 453 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:16,120 baby brother of the family and kindergarten and friends and just all of those things. 454 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:25,680 And God had other plans completely. And yet I need to believe that in that very short 455 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:34,400 period of time that Ori completely fulfilled the story that God wrote for him on this earth. 456 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:42,760 But that would be so depressing if he wasn't made for a much bigger and most spectacular 457 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:50,040 story and a story that's playing out for all of eternity. And so I think that is what keeps 458 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:56,280 me going in that Ori missed the prelude, like we're living the prelude, he missed it, but 459 00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:03,280 he didn't miss out on the main act. He's there. He's actually there way before we are. And 460 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:12,920 so I think also kind of putting into perspective how God values our lives, another verse comes 461 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:21,520 to mind with us. So I had to have a C-section because of reasons outside of our control 462 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:28,080 and with Isaiah. And so they came in and told me they were going to wheel me into the O-R 463 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,960 and I was just like, I cannot do this. Like, Lord, I cannot go in there. I have my son 464 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:39,520 be born to die. I just, I can't, it just was so difficult. And at that exact moment out 465 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:46,480 of nowhere, seemingly nowhere, 1 Corinthians 1, 27 and 28, the entire passage just, it's 466 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,240 like someone just downloaded it to my mind at that moment. I don't remember when I'd 467 00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:56,160 read it last. And it says, but God chose the foolish things of this world to shame the 468 00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:02,480 wise. God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things 469 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:09,120 of the world and the despised things and the things that are not to nullify the things 470 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:17,040 that are. And God just, I feel like spoke those words over me. And I stood up and I 471 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:24,120 said to Aren, I need to go and have this baby. And they came back in with the wheelchair 472 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:34,000 and I said, no, I need to walk to the O-R to have this baby. And I walked to the O-R 473 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:43,760 and to this day, I have never in my life felt such purpose or such honor in anything that 474 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:51,720 I have ever done in my life. And so I believe it was an honor from the Lord to get to carry 475 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:59,400 my son who died like pretty much right after he was born, to get to carry him, to get to 476 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:10,360 birth him was a gift from the Lord. And the way that it gave me such peace and such strength 477 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:16,760 and such purpose, that's nothing short of God doing that. That was not me walking in 478 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:25,600 my own strength. But that verse has just stuck with me, that one Corinthians passage of, 479 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:32,800 I don't know what God is doing, but Isaiah's life is a weak thing and a lowly thing and 480 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:39,360 to many people, a despised thing. And right after I gave birth to him, shortly after it 481 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:46,880 was a thing that was not. And yet God who is sovereign and good and kind is able to 482 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:54,480 use Isaiah's story, Isaiah's life, even as a thing that is not to nullify the things 483 00:53:54,480 --> 00:54:00,200 that are against the darkness and the powers at work in this world. I believe that. I don't 484 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:09,320 know what it looks like. I don't claim to, but God does, God knows. And so at some point 485 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:14,480 it's this, at some point, and I think we all get there in different ways, and I think sometimes 486 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:21,160 we get there and then we backtrack and we have to get there again. It's just this trust. 487 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:26,920 It's this trust that he knows what he's doing. I don't have it figured out. I don't even 488 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:33,640 need to have it figured out. It's okay. Yeah. 489 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:40,020 Thank you. I mean, that's an incredibly, an incredible, powerful testimony to our creator 490 00:54:40,020 --> 00:54:50,560 and a Redeemer and the wholeness of his work and our lives. And wow. So I thank you guys 491 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:59,320 for your willingness to be open and to share from your story. So if I'm remembering correctly, 492 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:05,320 it was, was it October 2022 that he was born? 493 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:06,320 Sorry? 494 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:12,360 Oh, I said, was he, was he born in October 2022? 495 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,360 Yes. Yes. October. Okay. 496 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,880 18, 2022. 497 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:24,160 Okay. So just kind of letting people have a sense of the time, you know, the time range 498 00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,240 really for all of this, from going all the way back to the beginning of your Lyme 499 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:35,720 disease and then of course, with Ori. I, we need to wrap it up here. I do want to 500 00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:41,120 say one thing we didn't get to talk about, but I want to at least mention it for our 501 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:47,680 listeners. And I will put a link to Able Speaks in our, our show notes. It's my understanding 502 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:53,960 that ministry really helped, helped you guys and specifically focuses on, if I got the 503 00:55:53,960 --> 00:56:00,840 terminology right, life limiting diagnoses and you know, and so what that could be extremely 504 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,640 meaningful to people that are, they're going through that. So we want to make sure people 505 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:11,160 know about Able Speaks and, but anything else you'd like to say about Remain or how people 506 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:19,200 can get connected to Remain or how they can even help with what you're doing? 507 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,400 Just a real quick thing. Yeah. About Able Speaks, because I don't want to not mention 508 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:31,600 them. Yes. They, they specifically focus on prenatal life limiting diagnosis. So anyone 509 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:36,600 listening out there, or if you know someone who is walking through or has walked through 510 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,920 a life limiting diagnosis with a child that they've lost, reach out to them because they're 511 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:48,160 pretty phenomenal at what they do. And it's a very specific ministry, but they just offer 512 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:55,000 like a mental couple to walk with you and they send keepsakes with your child's name 513 00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:01,940 on it and they do a retreat for families who have lost a child. And so we got to participate 514 00:57:01,940 --> 00:57:06,400 in those things and it has been an immense blessing, not just for us, but also for our 515 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:12,400 living children. So yeah. But coming back to Remain. 516 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:19,680 So our website is RemainWithUs.org and on social media, especially Instagram, they can 517 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:27,440 find us at RemainWithUs. With Remain, we have our podcasts. We have a podcast just called 518 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:35,000 Remain where we share our story over 30, 30 episodes. I also have a podcast called Honey 519 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:40,440 and Gold where I'm teaching through scripture that you had commented on earlier. And I have 520 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:46,680 three volumes, scripture, providence and lament. And I can share more info about that if someone's 521 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:53,360 interested. We also have a few small groups that we host online. We also do a few seminars 522 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:58,320 on suffering, but also on training Christians to help people in suffering. So if there's 523 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:06,920 a church that would like to kind of connect and partner with us, as far as following Remain, 524 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,240 if anyone would like to receive our newsletter to get some updates, they can send out an 525 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:19,560 email RemainWithUs at gmail.com. But also on our website, there is a place for giving and 526 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:25,640 they can donate or become either a one-time gift or a monthly donor. And that would be 527 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:32,740 just a huge encouragement for us to do what we feel God is calling us to do in this area. 528 00:58:32,740 --> 00:58:37,080 So RemainWithUs.org and you can click under giving. 529 00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,500 Okay. All right. Well, thank you for sharing that. We'll make sure that is all in the show 530 00:58:41,500 --> 00:58:46,360 notes as well, all the different links that we have talked about, including to your podcast. 531 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:51,680 And I'm very encouraged by your ministry. I'm also encouraged by the fact that it offers 532 00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:57,440 something for people who want to do better about helping others that are going through 533 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:03,200 these types of these type of ordeals that you've gone through. Because, you know, sometimes 534 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,640 especially like you talked about earlier, if you've not gone through that, that sort 535 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:15,040 of thing before, and you've been untested, it can be very difficult to know what to do, 536 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,600 what to say. And I know that's not always the point, but to have some kind of equipping 537 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:27,080 some kind of orientation to how you can really help people. I think that is a may not be 538 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:31,120 unique. There may be others that do that, but I wasn't aware of any. So I'm just really 539 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:35,240 thankful that you guys are offering that. And I just want, I want people to really check 540 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:41,200 it out. And so we're going to go ahead and end this particular, you know, conversation, 541 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:47,880 but I want to thank everyone for listening. I'll also remind you to go to BrokenAndMended.org 542 00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,760 and check out our support groups, which are going to be getting underway again, you know, 543 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,080 particularly for people with chronic illness and chronic pain. So things like chronic Lyme 544 00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:02,480 disease, those will be starting up again this fall. And there's also ways which you can 545 01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:07,800 partner with us there as well. So thanks for listening and we look forward to seeing you 546 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:27,360 next time on In the Seams.