Welcome to In the Seams, a podcast by Broken and Mended.
And now your host, David Heflin.
Welcome back to In the Seams and I'm excited to have Shannon Cramer with us as our guest
today.
And Shannon and I got connected through a book that she sent me in the mail.
She found us online.
I'm so glad that she did.
I'm so glad she sent me her book and I've been, had opportunity to read a little bit
of that.
In fact, I want to read just the back of it here where Shannon gives a short bio that
will be helpful if you need to get familiar with Shannon and I hope that you will and
we'll have links in the show notes to Shannon's website and where you can find her book and
all that good stuff.
Shannon is a writer, inspirational speaker and medical zebra, which is an interesting
way to describe our medical situation, but I get it.
Medical zebra who is passionate about bringing Christ's hope to the chronic illness community.
She lives with her definitely superhero husband and occasionally supermodel cat in Virginia.
And so we're certainly glad to have you, Shannon.
Thank you for joining us, looking forward to this conversation.
I wonder if we might start by just telling us a little bit about yourself, kind of your
illness, the journey you've been on, how you came to see God using your health challenges
to be a blessing to others.
Yes.
Well, first, thank you so much for having me.
It is such a joy to be here and I'm so glad that somebody is making a ministry for people
with chronic illness and chronic pain that is something that is so needed.
So thank you.
It's a joy.
And I'm the author of How to Keep Believing When You're Suffering, a Guide to Braving
Chronic Illness.
And kind of like when I watched the Broken and Mended video, David, you said you started
making resources because you felt like that was something you needed.
I never set out to be an author.
That's how I started writing.
I started writing for me because I was dealing with chronic illnesses and really just didn't
feel like there were resources out there to tell me how to move forward in faith.
And just to let the listeners know kind of where I am from a chronic illness perspective.
So I've been chronically ill for 13 years.
And for me, it started at the age of 23.
And it was just such a radical shift from the life I had known until then.
I was very normal, very high achieving, you know, just being able to graduate college
and get married.
And all of a sudden, I just started having all of these really bizarre symptoms.
And my disorders are fairly rare.
The two big ones I have are narcolepsy and POTS.
POTS stands for post orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.
And to kind of put that into perspective for people, what it's like, I like to compare
myself to two different Disney characters.
I'm a little bit like Sleeping Beauty because narcoleptics, the body has lost the ability
to regulate your sleep schedule and your sleep cycles.
And what that means is that my brain kind of functions at a level you'd expect to see
after somebody has been sleep deprived for 24 to 48 hours.
And that comes with a lot of brain fog and difficulty concentrating, low energy, chronic
fatigue, and I take daily naps.
And the POTS piece exacerbates that because it affects your autonomic nervous system.
Your autonomic nervous system is everything in your body that you don't really consciously
think about.
So it's a communication disorder between the brain and that system and can be anything
from your digestion, just how your muscles are pushing food through your body to blood
pressure to heart rate to respiration.
And so there's really a lot of different ways that POTS can look for different patients.
And that's where that term medical zebra comes from.
A lot of POTS patients identify with that term because it takes a long time for doctors
to figure out what's wrong with us sometimes with all bizarre symptoms.
My main symptom is low blood volume.
So in addition to Sleeping Beauty, I'm also like the Little Mermaid because my body needs
a lot of water that I am not capable of giving it.
I'm constantly fighting dehydration.
And because of that, I have a port similar to cancer patients and I run eight liters
of saline intravenously each week just to keep my blood volume up at a level where my
organs have everything they need to function properly.
So altogether, like these two disorders have really just changed the way I thought my adult
life was going to look.
Everything from my chosen career and ability to work full time and also it's just significantly
impacted our family planning.
And so that was a lot of grief to come to terms with as a young woman.
When my husband and I first got married, we thought there was going to be a magic pill
they could give me to make it all go away.
And realizing that wasn't going to be the case, I really felt like I needed to reconcile
how God was working through this, even though he wasn't answering my prayers.
And just in order to keep my hope and keep my faith.
And that's why I started writing and trying to find different ways to move forward.
And I wanted somebody to give me the color coded map that told me how to do it.
And it just wasn't out there.
And so I ended up diving into the Bible so much with God.
And I just hope some of the tools that he used to comfort me will be things that comfort
and encourage other people.
Well thank you Shannon for sharing that.
And I also just want to say about your book in a prior conversation that we had.
You mentioned it really kind of came out of about a 10 year effort and journey.
And I mean that to me is going to add some depth there.
This wasn't something that you rushed through.
You weren't just trying to get a book out there.
It really reflects the depth of the journey that you've been on.
And I know that's going to be a blessing to many other people.
As I said, we'll definitely put a link to where they can find that book as well as your
website.
But I'll maybe put an Amazon link or something in the show notes as well.
And there's a lot, you know, yeah, no problem.
And there's a lot we can focus on when it comes to a conversation about chronic illness.
That's always the challenge in a conversation like this where we have some time constraints.
But we're going to focus on a particular aspect of that today as it relates to our faith and
something that a lot of people struggle with and people may be surprised at this, especially
those that don't have chronic illness and chronic pain, wrestling with the question,
is God punishing me through my chronic health conditions?
And while some may hear that and think, well, that's ridiculous.
Why would anyone think that?
There are others that will tell people that, you know, in the Christian community.
And then there's just always this kind of inner voice.
I think you said something in your book about, yeah, I know you did, because I immediately
said yes.
When you asked the question, do you feel like you have a debate team, you know, going on
in your brain?
And it's like, yes, all the time.
It won't it won't shut up.
And that's hard because it can inflict a lot of doubt into our walk with God.
And so I want to ask, first of all, just to talk about why this question, you know, why
is this such a relevant question for people who are struggling with chronic health conditions?
Is God punishing me through my chronic health conditions?
Yes, I think when prayers go unanswered and when we just have bad things happening in our
lives, I mean, I don't know about you, David, but I'm kind of a fix it type person.
So I'm kind of trying to identify like cause and effect what caused this to happen.
And sometimes when there's not an obvious answer, I think it's really easy for us to
kind of internalize that and start thinking this is something I've done or haven't done.
And because we just want to get better and we're desperate for that.
And we know sometimes it's true that sickness can be related to sin in that, you know, STDs
can be related to pernicious behavior or, you know, cancer can be caused by smoking.
And I think that can almost make that lie harder to defeat because there are situations
that when there can be a kernel of truth to that.
But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, people who have been horrifically abused
get STDs, you know, through no fault of their own.
You know, people who take good care of their bodies get cancer.
And so there's just so many backstories and complexities when it comes to sickness and
chronic illness.
And we all just want to move forward.
And so guilt ended up being a really crushing issue for me, something that just really weighed
me down and stressed me out for such a long time.
And something I too that I'm not really sure I knew how to give voice to for a while that
I was feeling and struggling with those feelings.
And I just think, you know, of all things, when you're struggling with chronic illness,
you already are just battling so much in your body.
So then to have to fight that battle in your mind, it's really like being kicked when you're
down.
And so if we can help set someone free today, help them feel loved and lift that weight
off their shoulders, I think that is just such a gift to receive.
Yeah, thank you for that.
And you mentioned the book title, I'm going to say it again, how to keep believing when
you're suffering such a great title and such a needed kind of put something out there we
can keep our eyes focused on.
Of course, ultimately, we're fixing our eyes on on Jesus, you know, and we want that process
to continue as we're not going to stop in our faith because of what has happened to
us because of our health.
But there are unique challenges that come with that.
And you're addressing those in your book, including this question and three chapters
specifically address this question.
And so I'm going to ask you some questions about what you wrote in those chapters.
And you talked about a key moment when a spiritual leader named Pat, you told you about your
illness, just simply these words, Shannon, this is not your fault.
Why is that such a powerful statement?
Why did that simple statement have such a powerful impact in your life?
First of all, I wasn't expecting it because we were just a really difficult situation
physically.
And that was kind of like a secret battle I was having fighting all that crippling guilt.
And my husband and I went and asked a deacon at the church to pray with us.
And we were expecting her to start praying healing prayers over us.
But I just feel like God kind of put a word in her ear because when she looked at me and
said that I immediately just started bawling and my husband looked over at me kind of like,
what's going on?
But I just I didn't realize until that moment how badly I needed to hear that this wasn't
my fault, that it wasn't because I was struggling with some feelings of anger towards God.
And I mean, these are things that people told me in the church at different points.
Maybe if you weren't angry with God, maybe you would have been healed by now or, you
know, maybe it's a lack of faith.
And just it felt like just wearing additional shackles.
And when she said that to me, it was just it was just like somebody sang like a Liberty
anthem over my soul.
And I realized how important it was for me to really dive into the Bible and discover
what Jesus said about sin and sickness.
And so I could know for myself and be confident that, you know, that he had taken my punishment
upon himself because it's just awful to be under that strain of guilt when you're dealing
with chronic illness at the same time.
Yeah.
And I think we're going to talk about this a little bit later, but I wanted to mention
because you've already brought up the fact that there are some maybe listening that their
choices or decisions had some kind of impact and where they ended up with their with their
health.
And certainly a lot of our listeners need to just hear that outright.
It's not your fault.
But one of the distinctions that you draw later is that even if we have somehow contributed
to our own health situation, that God is not does not use that in our lives to condemn
us.
He does not use that in our lives to accuse us.
Accusations come from the evil.
Yes, Satan.
They don't they don't come from God.
And of course, we're speaking about for people that are in, you know, in Christ.
And you make reference to that great verse in your book.
I believe you mentioned there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
So even if you were someone that maybe has something in your background that contributed
to your health, you need to still hear those words as well.
There's now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
So I did want to.
I'm so glad you said that, David, because the thing about this conversation is it's
kind of a complex and nuanced conversation.
So I would encourage people to listen through to the end just to hear all the different
sides of it and to put it together as a whole, because everyone is going to be encouraged.
Shannon, thank you for bringing out the fact that there is a lot of nuance in these conversations.
And I think a lot of times in these conversations, people want simple answers.
They want it to be black or white.
And when they when they don't have a ready explanation for the things that are going
on in their own life or your life, they can sometimes simplify things and in a harmful
way, in a way that wants to assign guilt or wants to assign blame or either that or they're
trying to fix it.
They're trying to offer some kind of solution, some kind of suggestion that they think will
fix it or some kind of simplistic answer to how God could let such a thing happen to you.
And I think this is much better over a conversation.
And I'm jumping ahead to a point in our conversation later, but I just am thinking that as we are
having conversations with people, why sometimes they if they say something in the moment that
is hurtful or we think needs needs a response.
And there may be those situations that don't need a response.
But those situations where we feel like that's necessary, how much better it is to sit down
and have a conversation with someone so that we can bring out some of that nuance and we
can help people to understand what our journey has has been like.
I did want to pick up on this idea of punishment.
You talk about it quite a bit in one of your chapters and make what I consider to be a
provocative claim.
And I'll say that I believe I believe you're right in this claim.
But I wanted to unpack a little bit.
I wanted to unpack it a little bit because I think at first glance, some people might
have some pushback about it.
So I wanted to unpack it a bit.
It says Jesus's sacrifice makes it utterly impossible for any negative situation in your
life to be punishment from God.
And so I wanted to ask why you're so certain of that truth.
And then also, and kind of a little bit of a different question, but it goes along with
it here.
How would you differentiate between punishment and discipline?
And is there still a role for discipline in our lives that is different than punishment,
if that makes sense?
Yes.
You're throwing me a curveball, something I didn't talk about in the book.
So I'll start with the book piece first, because if there was a way to feel guilty, I experienced
it and thought about it.
So when I think about that question, you know, can sickness be a punishment from God?
And I think this is something that not just people who are chronically ill can relate
to, you know, people who maybe have had a relationship not turn out the way they wanted
it to despite their best efforts or who have a child that is walking away from the way
that they've raised them or are just struggling with, you know, a habit, anything that is
kind of a long term problem.
And you're not seeing God answer those prayers and start to wonder if there is a punishment.
What I think about here is even on earth, we practice this concept called double jeopardy,
at least here in America.
And the Bible says that everything God does is just and fair.
So the concept of double jeopardy in the legal system is that if somebody has been punished
for an offense, they can't be punished twice for the same offense.
And I think as humans, most of us would agree that this is fair.
And so God's word says that Jesus was punished for our sins.
In Isaiah 53, five, it says he took our sins upon himself.
And what that means is that our sentence has been paid.
And so if God were to kind of strike you with a punishment in your life, to me, what that
means is that it would require him just to kind of rob the cross of its power to completely
undermine what Jesus did.
And in doing so, he would forfeit his goodness and just cease to be holy.
And so for him to send a punishment into the life of a believer, to me, that just would
be an act of injustice that would unravel the very fabric of his being.
And once I started to think about it in that context, it made me just realize that even
if negative things do come into my life, God might allow that because he'll bring something
good out of it.
And he knows that in the end, it'll make you stronger.
He's not up there sending that to you to put you in corner in the time out chair because
you did something he disapproved of.
And I think that's such an important distinction to know that God is on our side and he's not
out to get us or pay us back for something we did wrong.
And so when we have those lingering feelings of guilt, we can just take them and point
them to the cross because that's where our punishment hangs.
Yeah, well said, and I think certainly we need to remember that our sins are painful.
Like you said, they don't need to be paid again.
Jesus' blood in the cross is adequate for that payment.
In our experience, our walk with God, I do think sometimes he allows some consequences
that come into our lives for some of our behaviors or actions that have a role of discipline.
And Hebrews talks about this, Hebrews 12, I believe, talks about God disciplines those
whom he loves.
But the difference between punishment and discipline, of course, has to do with the
intent of the person who is giving that out.
Punishment is essentially to serve justice on a wrong committed.
And like you said, that has already been taken care of, whereas discipline is something that
is for shaping us.
And not everything that comes into our life through discipline is necessarily due to sin
or the consequences of sin either.
Sometimes God can use things like suffering, he often does, in things like chronic illness
and chronic pain, that he is discipling us.
And he even talks about Jesus having been perfected through discipline, that he learned
the discipline all the way to the cross, of course.
And so, yeah, I appreciate that.
That was an interesting thing because I was just thinking about as I was reading that
maybe what someone might say regarding, you know, well, what about Hebrews 12?
And it brings out this concept of discipline.
But that really is different than punishment.
And I think you do a good job of describing that.
And along those same lines, and along the same lines of kind of talking about the intention
of what God is doing in our lives and how that works and works itself out in our lives,
you make a distinction between godly sorrow and false condemnation.
And of course, godly sorrow is a term that comes from the apostle Paul.
And so I want to ask kind of about that difference, or maybe how can we tell the difference between
them in our own lives?
What is godly sorrow?
What is false condemnation?
Because here's part of that nuanced conversation because some guilt is good and necessary as
a society.
We don't want people to go around who never feel guilty because then we would all be a
bunch of sociopaths.
And so like appropriate levels of remorse are important to just moral growth.
But what's tricky is like the godly sorrow and also this false condemnation.
And when I say false condemnation, I'm speaking of untrue and unmerited feelings of guilt
and shame, but they feel similar and look similar.
And so I kind of developed a screening tool that helped me recognize when I was experiencing
godly sorrow and when I was experiencing false condemnation.
And it has two different pieces to it.
So the first piece is that false condemnation tends to be very vague and it tends to be
spiritually paralyzing.
So for example, it's going to be thoughts like, I'm such a screw up.
I never do anything right.
I must have done something to deserve this.
And you're kind of racking your brain to think, you know, what is this mystery sin that I
did that brought this situation into my life?
And if that has been a struggle for someone today, I just, I would like you to ask yourself
if a vague accusations make sense from God's perspective.
Because his goal through godly sorrow is when the Holy Spirit convicts you of a specific
behavior so that you can make positive behavior changes.
And so Paul describes godly sorrow like this.
This is from second Corinthians seven verses 10 through 11.
For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation.
There's no regret for that kind of sorrow.
To see what this godly sorrow has produced in you, such earnestness, such concern to
clear yourselves.
You show that you've done everything necessary to make things right.
And so to me, a big indicator of godly sorrow is that it's action oriented, and it's encouraging
you to partner with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like.
It's catalyst for change and those feelings of false condemnation that are vague and spiritually
paralyzing those just tend to hang out in your head and make you feel worthless.
And they actually distract from the good you can do because you get so bogged down and
so discouraged that you feel spiritually paralyzed and like you can't move forward or that you
can't connect with God because the feelings have made you feel unworthy of his attention.
And in that way, it can break connection and can be a very destructive force.
And so that's one key piece to recognizing when it's godly sorrow or when it is feelings
of false condemnation.
Another piece that was really helpful for me was thinking, would a doctor connect to
my behavior with my physical condition?
Because I think sometimes our mind just plays tricks on us.
Most of the battles in my life, if I could take the battles, David, that I've had in
my body and separate them from all the fear and mental battles and insecurities I've had
during this battle with chronic illness, I think I would have saved myself at least two
thirds of the suffering I've experienced.
And so your mind can play tricks on you and it's easy sometimes when you're just trying
to answer that why question to relate your chronic illness to a behavior that a doctor
would say is unrelated.
And so that can be just kind of a practical piece to tack on to the spiritual piece as
a little check for yourself.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate that because I think that which is truly spiritual will also be practical
and those were together to bring about some change, some transformation in our lives.
And it causes me just to reflect, and you've alluded to this throughout this conversation,
really the goodness and the nature of God and His intent toward us.
He didn't intervene dramatically in history through sending His Son to condemn us.
That wasn't His, He didn't need to intervene if that's what He was going to do.
He wants to save us.
He wants to bring about what is good in our lives and good for beneficial to us in terms
of transformation into a more Christ-like person.
And you say that, and I wanted to read this quote from your book from the same subject,
false condemnation breaks connection with God, but godly sorrow builds relationship
as you join forces with the Holy Spirit to pursue a more Christ-like you.
And I think that was beautifully said and powerfully said.
Part of it for me too is to, and so as we interpret all these things that are going
on in our lives, we can, as you give us these helpful tools, can kind of categorize, okay,
what seems to be the intent of this particular thought or attitude in my mind.
And if it isn't for good and it isn't for our transformation to a more Christ-like person,
then we can understand that that's not coming from God.
And I think that really does help if we remember the intent of God toward us in His nature
and at work in our lives.
And one of the things I was going to say is just for me, I was a disciple of Jesus before
chronic illness and chronic pain entered into my life.
And although that is a great altering and kind of redefining event when it happens,
it does not change my perspective or goal that I still want to be a disciple of Jesus.
And now I'm looking for how God is going to use that in my life.
And I admit when it first came into my life, I'm saying this, you said you've been dealing
with chronic illness for 13 years, isn't that right?
Let's see, mine started in 2011, so it's been 15 years.
So yeah, the same amount of time that you have, although you're starting at a younger
age, which has its own implications, I think, especially when you're right at the beginning
of something like a new marriage and beginning of your career and all that.
For me, it kind of hit me midstream.
My kids were born, I was already in my career, but it then caused this major shift in what
all that was going to look like.
And there were a lot of questions.
And I wasn't ready to hear in the very beginning about all the good things that God is going
to do through my chronic illness, because I just wanted to say, yeah, but I don't want
this.
OK, that was my focus early on.
And then as I kept saying that, every time I'd go to the doctor, it was like something
worse seemed to be coming into my life, or it was worse than we even realized.
And that went on for really first two or three years of dealing with that.
But I still come back to it.
But I never lost sight of the overall goal in my life.
I want to be a follower of Jesus.
And I know people that are listening to this may be coming from different backgrounds,
maybe not everyone that hears this is a Christian.
I don't know.
But for those of us who are Christians and we want to follow Jesus, then ultimately we
do want to kind of reach a point where we're looking to see, well, how is God using this?
How is he using the Holy Spirit in my life, as you say, to pursue a more Christ like you?
And those things don't have to do with false condemnation or any of the negative accusation
kind of things that we've talked about.
They have everything to do rather with things like godly sorrow and the idea of discipline
instead of punishment.
And again, those are two very different things conceptually, even though we may see them
as overlapping.
But I know and look for God to use things to discipline me in my life to be more like
Christ.
And that's a totally different purpose than punishment.
So I really thank you for bringing those out.
You also make the claim that and I think this is important and can be something that lifts
a burden, but healing doesn't depend on you.
So I wanted to ask why you think that point is important for the chronic illness sufferer
to know?
Why is that even something that we need to emphasize that healing doesn't?
Yes.
Well, there's just so many multiple factors at play.
You know, I look at the story of the man born blind that Jesus heals.
And even, you know, back in biblical times, the very first question that the disciples
ask him about the man born blind is who sinned, his parents or him that he was born this way.
And so that just shows you where her mindset is right there.
They didn't even have a question if sin had been committed, just who did it?
And Jesus's response was so revolutionary because he says, you know, this occurred so
that the glory of God may be manifest in the life of this man.
I'm sorry, I'm trying to pull that verse from memory and a little off there, but that's
the gist of the message.
And yes.
And so in that one sentence, Jesus gives this man who has been just assumed to be a sinner
his entire life, he gives him the gift of dignity.
He says that God sees him as important to his kingdom.
And I think we can ask ourselves, you know, instead of asking ourselves, is God punishing
me?
You know, is God calling me to a higher purpose?
And what is his purpose in this in my life?
And so that is an incredibly encouraging story.
But also, it just healing doesn't just depend on you.
There's a story about a paralytic that Jesus heals, the one that was lowered down through
the roof.
That was always one of my favorite Bible school stories growing up.
And the Bible says there that when he saw their faith, and you know, it's such an easy
little word to kind of jump over.
But that one word there, he's speaking about the friends, the four friends who lowered
the man down through the roof.
And so I think that is so beautiful, because it means that if we come to a place in life,
where we have just kind of had it with suffering and are just weary in our souls, that God
can use the faith of people around us to intervene on our behalf and can respond to that.
And so it's not just on our shoulders, family and friends need to get involved, too.
And a third point just to remember is that, you know, Jesus says in this world, you will
have trouble but take heart because I have overcome the world.
And if you look at the lives of some of the most faithful Christians in history, you know,
Paul had an unspecified thorn in his side.
And by that they meant some sort of physical ailment.
The Bible doesn't really tell us more specifics on what that was.
But we know it must have been annoying because Paul goes on record saying that he pleaded
with God three times to take it away.
And you know, God says that through this, he's teaching Paul, his strength is sufficient.
And you know, Paul, he wrote, you're a pastor, so I know I wrote this down in my book, but
just trying to call it up from memory.
Is it 27?
He wrote 27 or 13 of the books of the New Testament.
Yeah, there's 27.
I know I fact-checked that before writing it in my book.
And you know, he was the first missionary to the Gentiles.
And so he had a huge ministry.
But if you want more modern day examples, you know, Mother Teresa, she had surgery to
get a heart pacemaker.
Billy Graham, in the last years of his life, dealt with Parkinson's disease.
And C.S. Lewis, who I love his writings, you know, he died at age 64 from kidney failure.
And so these are people who are kind of giants of the faith.
And so I particularly kind of key into that when I'm fighting internal accusations of
like, do you have enough faith to be healed?
Because these are people who preach Jesus to millions and still had health problems.
And so sometimes I think we just don't know why God allows certain things and just have
to trust that he's calling something good out of it and that it will be redeemed.
And I think you're making the point now as well as in your book, because there is a lot
of harmful theology out there that kind of ends up intersecting with the lives of the
people that are listening to this podcast and people in the chronic illness community
in general, where they're told sometimes by their own church backgrounds, whether on a
higher level, like a denominational level, or but more personally by people close to
them.
Not only in some way could this be their fault, but if you continue to be sick, it remains
your fault.
You know, that is because you don't have enough faith to be healed.
And I've encountered that very thing in my church here, but I've seen Woodward, I have.
And it's just tragic and sad.
And it's really honestly, it's just a lie.
And even if you go and read the passage in James, where James is talking about if we
are sick, to call on the elders to pray for us, anoint us with oil and talks about we
will be healed in that situation.
And that if you look at that more closely, that is a much more nuanced thing than what
people make it out to be.
But what I notice is that where the burden of faith is there, as far as the effectiveness
of the prayer is on the people that were praying for you, not necessarily for the person who
had the illness, which kind of goes in line with what you were saying about the paralytic
and the fact that Jesus commends the faith of the friends.
And certainly, well, that might have included the paralytic.
We don't know.
But that is interesting.
And I think that it's not insignificant that Jesus forgives the man's sins in connection
with their faith and what they and what they're and then ultimately does heal him from his
paralysis.
I think it's also interesting in that story that he forgives the man's sins before he
heals him of his paralysis and shows that certainly Jesus is concerned about his paralysis.
But there's something other things that Jesus is concerned about, too.
And he speaks to both our spiritual and physical needs.
You say on 52, page 52 of your book, and that's another just interesting.
You say so many things, I think, that are thought provoking and interesting.
And this is another one of those examples.
Sometimes it takes an even greater miracle of faith to keep believing in God's goodness
when your prayers go unanswered.
Why?
So, can you unpack that?
It just takes courage to continue to believe in the face of hardship.
And you know, it takes bravery and it also takes a commitment to instead of turning away
in anger, I think it's okay to feel angry, but coming to God to process that anger and
to process your grief with him is just so important.
And you know, he's big enough to handle our honesty.
But it also, you know, digging deep into your emotions, like it can be painful within itself.
And so believing that God can help you work through something and doing the work to do
that day by day, because a lot of the things I mentioned in my book, David, just are things
to help fight lies, things for different mental battles that I had along the way.
And the thing about that is like I mentioned the magic pill earlier, like these aren't
really a magic pill either.
They're things, they're positive habits that you develop that over time, as you speak God's
truth into yourself, as you practice, you know, what the Bible is saying and kind of
stand on God's promises, you look back and you realize that, you know, I'm not bitter
anymore.
I'm not angry anymore.
You know, I've been growing in peace.
But it's something that has to be worked at and has to be followed day to day.
And so I think, yes, I think it takes more courage and to be open for God to do miracles
other than healing in the concept that we think of it just as physical healing, because
in the 13 years I've had chronic illness, I think the biggest miracle for me, and I
do consider this to be a miracle, is that now, I mean, many points along the way, if
you would ask me if I wanted to revert to my old life, I would have said yes.
But I've come to a point where I've realized that I'm not the same person I was.
Not that I was a bad person before, but I've just changed and grown in ways that I wouldn't
have otherwise.
And I like the person I am on the inside better now than I think I would have liked the person
I would have been without these challenges.
And just the miracle I see is that I love myself in my life again, despite chronic illness.
And for many years, that was something that I thought was impossible.
That's an awesome perspective, and it does take a little while sometimes for us to gain
that perspective, especially in the early part of our journey.
So we are allowing for recognizing that people are all along the journey, but we encourage
you to stay on the journey.
And like you said, don't turn away from God in your anger.
If you're angry, give it to God, but continue to hold on and let God bring out what He's
going to bring out.
And one way to look at it is we're going to go through it anyway.
It's much better if we can go through it in participation with God in our life to bring
something positive into our life through it.
And you talk about the character change that has come about in your own life.
And I could say a similar thing.
I think I wasn't the most empathetic person 13 years ago, even though I was in pastoral
ministry.
I mean, I knew how to say, well, I'm sorry, but the kind of with the best of them.
But I really didn't get it on an experiential level, really suffering and what people were
going through.
And it becomes a point where I couldn't really put a price on what I've learned and how I've
grown if, you know, through this experience of dealing with these ups and downs of the
chronic pain and chronic illness.
Now, not everyone, as this will be a shock to no one, not everyone that we encounter
will be fully understanding of what this journey is like and not everyone is going to say helpful
things.
I think you do a great job of talking about that in your book and talking about, you know,
the need for grace where we can have it.
And also the need sometimes to recognize that not every relationship that we have with someone
necessitates a response if they say something as harmful.
But sometimes it does.
And sometimes there are people close to us that may say something that really was hurtful
and we need we need to address it.
You talk about kind of a pulling off period and setting up a time, you know, to have that
conversation.
I think that's just that's just good practical advice in any case, but especially in dealing
with this issue.
And this is a key point.
I thought I'm trying or in trying to cope with their own confusion or disappointment.
They may find it easier to question you than to question God.
So my question to you is how can this realization help us to have grace toward others and shape
our approach when we respond?
Yes.
So when I face accusations from others, I kind of take three different things into me
with that and deciding how to respond.
And first, like you said, you got to pick your because we face so many as people with
chronic illness, whether it's finances or physical battles, mental battles.
So if it's someone you don't know that well, sometimes you just got to smile and let those
things slide off and just don't let them steal any more of your joy.
But then you do run across people you need to engage with.
And that's more those conversations are more difficult.
But like you said, cooling off, finding a time when you're not going to be interrupted,
where you can sit down and talk together.
Also, I think it'd be helpful to bring somebody supportive with you.
And the piece you were talking about, you know, in the quote you said, with trying to
cope with their own confusion or disappointment, others may find it easier to question you
than question God.
Something that was really freeing for me, I had a situation where somebody I loved and
cared about.
I alluded to it earlier, I kind of confessed in a moment of frustration that I still had
some feelings of anger with God at times.
And, you know, that person kind of thought about it and they were like, well, maybe you
would receive more healing if you repented of that.
And that was that was very hurtful for me.
But this is also someone that I know have been praying for me for years.
And so I think sometimes people, you know, we have short attention spans when we pray
for other people, we want God to get in there and fix their problems.
And I think sometimes people are trying to figure out, you know, why it hasn't happened.
And they might feel confused and disappointed about it, too.
And so then they start to question maybe something they've done.
And I've also come across people that are very critical of themselves and have trouble
accepting God's grace for themselves.
And that can tend to make them a little more judgmental towards others.
And it's sad.
And both of these responses are hurtful.
But when I think about the people I know who gave me these responses, I realize, you know,
that they wanted healing for me and that in their own way, maybe they were trying to help
me find it.
And considering that that was their motivation, kind of help take the sting out of it a little
bit, just knowing that they wanted healing for me and allowed me to respond a little
more lovingly.
And at the end of the day, you just have to be convinced of your own righteousness in
Christ and just get in and stand on what the Bible says.
Because despite your best efforts, sometimes people just refuse to be persuaded.
And that's why you have to give God's voice first place in your heart.
Yeah.
Well said.
You know, it's kind of that power of differentiation, you know, where I recognize that what is my
problem and what is your problem.
And I can't really control if you have some really misguided theology that is causing
you to think incorrect things about myself or what's happening in my life with God and
where we can suggest or offer a general correction.
That's great.
But like at the end of the day, we have to know, as you said, kind of where we stand
with what is true and not not kind of take in someone else's untruth about us and make
it our own.
And so I think that's such great advice.
I appreciate it.
I look forward to reading the rest of the book.
I wanted to know, do you have any other writing projects in the works?
Well, I never say I have to be an author, so this has been a surprise to me.
Also, it was funny because after finishing this book, I found this little paper that
I made in kindergarten that my mom had kept that said I wanted to be an author.
I had no memory of writing that.
So I was like, that's kind of a funny little God moment.
Maybe it was a little seed from the beginning.
My training was in elementary education.
I wasn't able to teach full time after all my symptoms developed.
But I did teach preschool part time for seven years and absolutely loved it.
So I actually have a ton of ideas for children's books that I would love to write if I get
the chance to do more publishing down the way.
Because as a teacher, I came across things and most of them are about spiritual concepts
too.
I spent so much trying to explain spiritual concepts in simple terms to my preschoolers.
Sometimes you would just want a better book for something or there wasn't a book out
there that kind of covered a certain topic.
If you see something from me in the future, that might be in the children's section.
Okay.
That would be awesome.
People can find out about your ministry at shannoncramerrights.com.
Is that correct?
And Kramer is spelled with a C.
That's Kramer with a C.
Okay, yeah.
Let's clarify that too.
And also you do some inspirational speaking and I believe there's information about that
on your website.
And people can take advantage of reaching out to you about that as well.
And there might be something in the works here between a broken amended and yourself
in that regard.
And so we'll see what develops there.
But we're excited about any future opportunities that God gives us to collaborate together.
And again, just want to thank you Shannon so much for being here.
Just a really wonderful conversation.
And I know it will be a blessing to many people.
And I recommend that people get this book.
Again, How to Keep Believing When You're Suffering.
We'll have links to it in the show notes.
And it will just be a blessing to you.
And we want you to get that.
And one mention also, you can go to brokenamended.org to get more information about our ministry
and our history.
If you're in a position to be able to consider partnering with us financially, and I say
that always with the qualification, we know that a lot of people that have chronic illness
or chronic pain are in a position where they are not able to do that because of the financial
burden.
But if you are and want to partner with us, you can do that on our website and support
resources like this podcast, as well as the curriculum and things that we are writing
and producing and it's going all over the world.
In fact, I will be in Kenya next week for a couple of weeks and excited about that.
But we're there because we got something like 150 support groups, broken amended support
groups in Kenya.
One of our challenges, just so you know, is getting enough materials to them as fast as
they go through it and use it.
And it's growing so fast there.
So that's one way you can partner with us there.
But more than anything, we want you to take advantage of the resources that are available.
And you can find all that at brokenamended.org.
And so again, thank you for being with us, Shannon.
I want to thank our listeners.
Thank you for our producer, Andres, who has been behind the scenes here with us all throughout
this episode.
And thankful also for John that will do some very important editing and everyone that works
to put this together.
So we will say goodbye for now.
And we pray that God will be with you on this journey.