1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Welcome to In the Seams, a podcast by Broken and Mended. 2 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:17,920 And now your host, David Heflin. 3 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,200 Welcome back to In the Seams and I'm excited to have Shannon Cramer with us as our guest 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:24,200 today. 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,280 And Shannon and I got connected through a book that she sent me in the mail. 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:29,280 She found us online. 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:30,760 I'm so glad that she did. 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,360 I'm so glad she sent me her book and I've been, had opportunity to read a little bit 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:36,360 of that. 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,840 In fact, I want to read just the back of it here where Shannon gives a short bio that 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,480 will be helpful if you need to get familiar with Shannon and I hope that you will and 12 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:52,240 we'll have links in the show notes to Shannon's website and where you can find her book and 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,240 all that good stuff. 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,720 Shannon is a writer, inspirational speaker and medical zebra, which is an interesting 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,040 way to describe our medical situation, but I get it. 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,920 Medical zebra who is passionate about bringing Christ's hope to the chronic illness community. 17 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:18,360 She lives with her definitely superhero husband and occasionally supermodel cat in Virginia. 18 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,320 And so we're certainly glad to have you, Shannon. 19 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,760 Thank you for joining us, looking forward to this conversation. 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,320 I wonder if we might start by just telling us a little bit about yourself, kind of your 21 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:35,480 illness, the journey you've been on, how you came to see God using your health challenges 22 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,240 to be a blessing to others. 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,240 Yes. 24 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,960 Well, first, thank you so much for having me. 25 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:47,440 It is such a joy to be here and I'm so glad that somebody is making a ministry for people 26 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:52,160 with chronic illness and chronic pain that is something that is so needed. 27 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:53,640 So thank you. 28 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,600 It's a joy. 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,640 And I'm the author of How to Keep Believing When You're Suffering, a Guide to Braving 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,760 Chronic Illness. 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,400 And kind of like when I watched the Broken and Mended video, David, you said you started 32 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,960 making resources because you felt like that was something you needed. 33 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,560 I never set out to be an author. 34 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:14,960 That's how I started writing. 35 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:20,560 I started writing for me because I was dealing with chronic illnesses and really just didn't 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,960 feel like there were resources out there to tell me how to move forward in faith. 37 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:33,340 And just to let the listeners know kind of where I am from a chronic illness perspective. 38 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:37,160 So I've been chronically ill for 13 years. 39 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,760 And for me, it started at the age of 23. 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,160 And it was just such a radical shift from the life I had known until then. 41 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,960 I was very normal, very high achieving, you know, just being able to graduate college 42 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:53,960 and get married. 43 00:02:53,960 --> 00:03:00,080 And all of a sudden, I just started having all of these really bizarre symptoms. 44 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,920 And my disorders are fairly rare. 45 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:08,280 The two big ones I have are narcolepsy and POTS. 46 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,560 POTS stands for post orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. 47 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,080 And to kind of put that into perspective for people, what it's like, I like to compare 48 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,400 myself to two different Disney characters. 49 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:29,040 I'm a little bit like Sleeping Beauty because narcoleptics, the body has lost the ability 50 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:34,320 to regulate your sleep schedule and your sleep cycles. 51 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:40,400 And what that means is that my brain kind of functions at a level you'd expect to see 52 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,160 after somebody has been sleep deprived for 24 to 48 hours. 53 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:53,200 And that comes with a lot of brain fog and difficulty concentrating, low energy, chronic 54 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,920 fatigue, and I take daily naps. 55 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:05,720 And the POTS piece exacerbates that because it affects your autonomic nervous system. 56 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:11,440 Your autonomic nervous system is everything in your body that you don't really consciously 57 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,160 think about. 58 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:21,040 So it's a communication disorder between the brain and that system and can be anything 59 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:28,280 from your digestion, just how your muscles are pushing food through your body to blood 60 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:34,000 pressure to heart rate to respiration. 61 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,640 And so there's really a lot of different ways that POTS can look for different patients. 62 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,000 And that's where that term medical zebra comes from. 63 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,040 A lot of POTS patients identify with that term because it takes a long time for doctors 64 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,720 to figure out what's wrong with us sometimes with all bizarre symptoms. 65 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,880 My main symptom is low blood volume. 66 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:01,120 So in addition to Sleeping Beauty, I'm also like the Little Mermaid because my body needs 67 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,200 a lot of water that I am not capable of giving it. 68 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,680 I'm constantly fighting dehydration. 69 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:14,900 And because of that, I have a port similar to cancer patients and I run eight liters 70 00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:21,680 of saline intravenously each week just to keep my blood volume up at a level where my 71 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,720 organs have everything they need to function properly. 72 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:32,760 So altogether, like these two disorders have really just changed the way I thought my adult 73 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,760 life was going to look. 74 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:42,720 Everything from my chosen career and ability to work full time and also it's just significantly 75 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,360 impacted our family planning. 76 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:51,120 And so that was a lot of grief to come to terms with as a young woman. 77 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,240 When my husband and I first got married, we thought there was going to be a magic pill 78 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,000 they could give me to make it all go away. 79 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:06,160 And realizing that wasn't going to be the case, I really felt like I needed to reconcile 80 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:12,280 how God was working through this, even though he wasn't answering my prayers. 81 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:16,240 And just in order to keep my hope and keep my faith. 82 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:23,080 And that's why I started writing and trying to find different ways to move forward. 83 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:28,240 And I wanted somebody to give me the color coded map that told me how to do it. 84 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:29,880 And it just wasn't out there. 85 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,880 And so I ended up diving into the Bible so much with God. 86 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,960 And I just hope some of the tools that he used to comfort me will be things that comfort 87 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:45,480 and encourage other people. 88 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,880 Well thank you Shannon for sharing that. 89 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:54,160 And I also just want to say about your book in a prior conversation that we had. 90 00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:00,280 You mentioned it really kind of came out of about a 10 year effort and journey. 91 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:04,540 And I mean that to me is going to add some depth there. 92 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:06,320 This wasn't something that you rushed through. 93 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,440 You weren't just trying to get a book out there. 94 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,200 It really reflects the depth of the journey that you've been on. 95 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,160 And I know that's going to be a blessing to many other people. 96 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,840 As I said, we'll definitely put a link to where they can find that book as well as your 97 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:20,840 website. 98 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,640 But I'll maybe put an Amazon link or something in the show notes as well. 99 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,320 And there's a lot, you know, yeah, no problem. 100 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,480 And there's a lot we can focus on when it comes to a conversation about chronic illness. 101 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:38,420 That's always the challenge in a conversation like this where we have some time constraints. 102 00:07:38,420 --> 00:07:44,480 But we're going to focus on a particular aspect of that today as it relates to our faith and 103 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,760 something that a lot of people struggle with and people may be surprised at this, especially 104 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,280 those that don't have chronic illness and chronic pain, wrestling with the question, 105 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,880 is God punishing me through my chronic health conditions? 106 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,000 And while some may hear that and think, well, that's ridiculous. 107 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,360 Why would anyone think that? 108 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,280 There are others that will tell people that, you know, in the Christian community. 109 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:11,000 And then there's just always this kind of inner voice. 110 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,560 I think you said something in your book about, yeah, I know you did, because I immediately 111 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:16,560 said yes. 112 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,440 When you asked the question, do you feel like you have a debate team, you know, going on 113 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:20,440 in your brain? 114 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,120 And it's like, yes, all the time. 115 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,000 It won't it won't shut up. 116 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:31,400 And that's hard because it can inflict a lot of doubt into our walk with God. 117 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,480 And so I want to ask, first of all, just to talk about why this question, you know, why 118 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,560 is this such a relevant question for people who are struggling with chronic health conditions? 119 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:44,640 Is God punishing me through my chronic health conditions? 120 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:50,960 Yes, I think when prayers go unanswered and when we just have bad things happening in our 121 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,880 lives, I mean, I don't know about you, David, but I'm kind of a fix it type person. 122 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:01,480 So I'm kind of trying to identify like cause and effect what caused this to happen. 123 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:07,880 And sometimes when there's not an obvious answer, I think it's really easy for us to 124 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:14,680 kind of internalize that and start thinking this is something I've done or haven't done. 125 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:18,960 And because we just want to get better and we're desperate for that. 126 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:29,360 And we know sometimes it's true that sickness can be related to sin in that, you know, STDs 127 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:36,040 can be related to pernicious behavior or, you know, cancer can be caused by smoking. 128 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:42,800 And I think that can almost make that lie harder to defeat because there are situations 129 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,760 that when there can be a kernel of truth to that. 130 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:52,040 But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, people who have been horrifically abused 131 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,600 get STDs, you know, through no fault of their own. 132 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,680 You know, people who take good care of their bodies get cancer. 133 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:06,320 And so there's just so many backstories and complexities when it comes to sickness and 134 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:07,320 chronic illness. 135 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,080 And we all just want to move forward. 136 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:17,920 And so guilt ended up being a really crushing issue for me, something that just really weighed 137 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,440 me down and stressed me out for such a long time. 138 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:27,920 And something I too that I'm not really sure I knew how to give voice to for a while that 139 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,760 I was feeling and struggling with those feelings. 140 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,800 And I just think, you know, of all things, when you're struggling with chronic illness, 141 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,080 you already are just battling so much in your body. 142 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,800 So then to have to fight that battle in your mind, it's really like being kicked when you're 143 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:46,960 down. 144 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,600 And so if we can help set someone free today, help them feel loved and lift that weight 145 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,280 off their shoulders, I think that is just such a gift to receive. 146 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,840 Yeah, thank you for that. 147 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,160 And you mentioned the book title, I'm going to say it again, how to keep believing when 148 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:14,240 you're suffering such a great title and such a needed kind of put something out there we 149 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,520 can keep our eyes focused on. 150 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,840 Of course, ultimately, we're fixing our eyes on on Jesus, you know, and we want that process 151 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,760 to continue as we're not going to stop in our faith because of what has happened to 152 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,360 us because of our health. 153 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,440 But there are unique challenges that come with that. 154 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:35,120 And you're addressing those in your book, including this question and three chapters 155 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,280 specifically address this question. 156 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,500 And so I'm going to ask you some questions about what you wrote in those chapters. 157 00:11:42,500 --> 00:11:49,360 And you talked about a key moment when a spiritual leader named Pat, you told you about your 158 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:54,240 illness, just simply these words, Shannon, this is not your fault. 159 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,880 Why is that such a powerful statement? 160 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,720 Why did that simple statement have such a powerful impact in your life? 161 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:06,920 First of all, I wasn't expecting it because we were just a really difficult situation 162 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,280 physically. 163 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:14,280 And that was kind of like a secret battle I was having fighting all that crippling guilt. 164 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,520 And my husband and I went and asked a deacon at the church to pray with us. 165 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,960 And we were expecting her to start praying healing prayers over us. 166 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,760 But I just feel like God kind of put a word in her ear because when she looked at me and 167 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:34,720 said that I immediately just started bawling and my husband looked over at me kind of like, 168 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,440 what's going on? 169 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:42,840 But I just I didn't realize until that moment how badly I needed to hear that this wasn't 170 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:49,960 my fault, that it wasn't because I was struggling with some feelings of anger towards God. 171 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:55,080 And I mean, these are things that people told me in the church at different points. 172 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:00,120 Maybe if you weren't angry with God, maybe you would have been healed by now or, you 173 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,960 know, maybe it's a lack of faith. 174 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:08,920 And just it felt like just wearing additional shackles. 175 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,860 And when she said that to me, it was just it was just like somebody sang like a Liberty 176 00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:16,800 anthem over my soul. 177 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:23,280 And I realized how important it was for me to really dive into the Bible and discover 178 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,640 what Jesus said about sin and sickness. 179 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:34,720 And so I could know for myself and be confident that, you know, that he had taken my punishment 180 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:42,520 upon himself because it's just awful to be under that strain of guilt when you're dealing 181 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,000 with chronic illness at the same time. 182 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,560 Yeah. 183 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:52,440 And I think we're going to talk about this a little bit later, but I wanted to mention 184 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:58,400 because you've already brought up the fact that there are some maybe listening that their 185 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,960 choices or decisions had some kind of impact and where they ended up with their with their 186 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,680 health. 187 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:08,480 And certainly a lot of our listeners need to just hear that outright. 188 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:09,480 It's not your fault. 189 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:16,560 But one of the distinctions that you draw later is that even if we have somehow contributed 190 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:22,880 to our own health situation, that God is not does not use that in our lives to condemn 191 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:23,880 us. 192 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,840 He does not use that in our lives to accuse us. 193 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:27,840 Accusations come from the evil. 194 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:28,840 Yes, Satan. 195 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:29,840 They don't they don't come from God. 196 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,320 And of course, we're speaking about for people that are in, you know, in Christ. 197 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,320 And you make reference to that great verse in your book. 198 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,320 I believe you mentioned there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 199 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,920 So even if you were someone that maybe has something in your background that contributed 200 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,600 to your health, you need to still hear those words as well. 201 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,200 There's now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 202 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,880 So I did want to. 203 00:14:54,880 --> 00:15:00,400 I'm so glad you said that, David, because the thing about this conversation is it's 204 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,220 kind of a complex and nuanced conversation. 205 00:15:03,220 --> 00:15:09,160 So I would encourage people to listen through to the end just to hear all the different 206 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:15,120 sides of it and to put it together as a whole, because everyone is going to be encouraged. 207 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:21,360 Shannon, thank you for bringing out the fact that there is a lot of nuance in these conversations. 208 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,600 And I think a lot of times in these conversations, people want simple answers. 209 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,080 They want it to be black or white. 210 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,860 And when they when they don't have a ready explanation for the things that are going 211 00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:37,020 on in their own life or your life, they can sometimes simplify things and in a harmful 212 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:42,560 way, in a way that wants to assign guilt or wants to assign blame or either that or they're 213 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,200 trying to fix it. 214 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,640 They're trying to offer some kind of solution, some kind of suggestion that they think will 215 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:57,680 fix it or some kind of simplistic answer to how God could let such a thing happen to you. 216 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,800 And I think this is much better over a conversation. 217 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,720 And I'm jumping ahead to a point in our conversation later, but I just am thinking that as we are 218 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:12,040 having conversations with people, why sometimes they if they say something in the moment that 219 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,040 is hurtful or we think needs needs a response. 220 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,360 And there may be those situations that don't need a response. 221 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,900 But those situations where we feel like that's necessary, how much better it is to sit down 222 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:28,360 and have a conversation with someone so that we can bring out some of that nuance and we 223 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,040 can help people to understand what our journey has has been like. 224 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,000 I did want to pick up on this idea of punishment. 225 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,080 You talk about it quite a bit in one of your chapters and make what I consider to be a 226 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,080 provocative claim. 227 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,560 And I'll say that I believe I believe you're right in this claim. 228 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,440 But I wanted to unpack a little bit. 229 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,920 I wanted to unpack it a little bit because I think at first glance, some people might 230 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,320 have some pushback about it. 231 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:54,640 So I wanted to unpack it a bit. 232 00:16:54,640 --> 00:17:01,360 It says Jesus's sacrifice makes it utterly impossible for any negative situation in your 233 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,760 life to be punishment from God. 234 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,520 And so I wanted to ask why you're so certain of that truth. 235 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,600 And then also, and kind of a little bit of a different question, but it goes along with 236 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:14,640 it here. 237 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,480 How would you differentiate between punishment and discipline? 238 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,800 And is there still a role for discipline in our lives that is different than punishment, 239 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:24,800 if that makes sense? 240 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:25,800 Yes. 241 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,760 You're throwing me a curveball, something I didn't talk about in the book. 242 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,720 So I'll start with the book piece first, because if there was a way to feel guilty, I experienced 243 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,960 it and thought about it. 244 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:46,000 So when I think about that question, you know, can sickness be a punishment from God? 245 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,520 And I think this is something that not just people who are chronically ill can relate 246 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,280 to, you know, people who maybe have had a relationship not turn out the way they wanted 247 00:17:55,280 --> 00:18:02,000 it to despite their best efforts or who have a child that is walking away from the way 248 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:08,000 that they've raised them or are just struggling with, you know, a habit, anything that is 249 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,840 kind of a long term problem. 250 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,840 And you're not seeing God answer those prayers and start to wonder if there is a punishment. 251 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:25,320 What I think about here is even on earth, we practice this concept called double jeopardy, 252 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,720 at least here in America. 253 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:34,800 And the Bible says that everything God does is just and fair. 254 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:42,140 So the concept of double jeopardy in the legal system is that if somebody has been punished 255 00:18:42,140 --> 00:18:47,520 for an offense, they can't be punished twice for the same offense. 256 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:53,040 And I think as humans, most of us would agree that this is fair. 257 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:59,440 And so God's word says that Jesus was punished for our sins. 258 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,920 In Isaiah 53, five, it says he took our sins upon himself. 259 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,000 And what that means is that our sentence has been paid. 260 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:17,360 And so if God were to kind of strike you with a punishment in your life, to me, what that 261 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:25,360 means is that it would require him just to kind of rob the cross of its power to completely 262 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,360 undermine what Jesus did. 263 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:32,720 And in doing so, he would forfeit his goodness and just cease to be holy. 264 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:38,480 And so for him to send a punishment into the life of a believer, to me, that just would 265 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:44,480 be an act of injustice that would unravel the very fabric of his being. 266 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:52,960 And once I started to think about it in that context, it made me just realize that even 267 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:59,700 if negative things do come into my life, God might allow that because he'll bring something 268 00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,400 good out of it. 269 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,640 And he knows that in the end, it'll make you stronger. 270 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:11,320 He's not up there sending that to you to put you in corner in the time out chair because 271 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,280 you did something he disapproved of. 272 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:21,320 And I think that's such an important distinction to know that God is on our side and he's not 273 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:28,160 out to get us or pay us back for something we did wrong. 274 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,600 And so when we have those lingering feelings of guilt, we can just take them and point 275 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,840 them to the cross because that's where our punishment hangs. 276 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:48,920 Yeah, well said, and I think certainly we need to remember that our sins are painful. 277 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,600 Like you said, they don't need to be paid again. 278 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,240 Jesus' blood in the cross is adequate for that payment. 279 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,720 In our experience, our walk with God, I do think sometimes he allows some consequences 280 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:09,280 that come into our lives for some of our behaviors or actions that have a role of discipline. 281 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,000 And Hebrews talks about this, Hebrews 12, I believe, talks about God disciplines those 282 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,280 whom he loves. 283 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,760 But the difference between punishment and discipline, of course, has to do with the 284 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,200 intent of the person who is giving that out. 285 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,680 Punishment is essentially to serve justice on a wrong committed. 286 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,200 And like you said, that has already been taken care of, whereas discipline is something that 287 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,800 is for shaping us. 288 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,720 And not everything that comes into our life through discipline is necessarily due to sin 289 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,240 or the consequences of sin either. 290 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,560 Sometimes God can use things like suffering, he often does, in things like chronic illness 291 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,320 and chronic pain, that he is discipling us. 292 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:58,960 And he even talks about Jesus having been perfected through discipline, that he learned 293 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,840 the discipline all the way to the cross, of course. 294 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,920 And so, yeah, I appreciate that. 295 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,480 That was an interesting thing because I was just thinking about as I was reading that 296 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:13,280 maybe what someone might say regarding, you know, well, what about Hebrews 12? 297 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,640 And it brings out this concept of discipline. 298 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,800 But that really is different than punishment. 299 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,280 And I think you do a good job of describing that. 300 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:27,200 And along those same lines, and along the same lines of kind of talking about the intention 301 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:34,840 of what God is doing in our lives and how that works and works itself out in our lives, 302 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,720 you make a distinction between godly sorrow and false condemnation. 303 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:46,280 And of course, godly sorrow is a term that comes from the apostle Paul. 304 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,360 And so I want to ask kind of about that difference, or maybe how can we tell the difference between 305 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:52,940 them in our own lives? 306 00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:54,560 What is godly sorrow? 307 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:55,560 What is false condemnation? 308 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:02,760 Because here's part of that nuanced conversation because some guilt is good and necessary as 309 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:03,760 a society. 310 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,840 We don't want people to go around who never feel guilty because then we would all be a 311 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,220 bunch of sociopaths. 312 00:23:10,220 --> 00:23:17,840 And so like appropriate levels of remorse are important to just moral growth. 313 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,560 But what's tricky is like the godly sorrow and also this false condemnation. 314 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:29,760 And when I say false condemnation, I'm speaking of untrue and unmerited feelings of guilt 315 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,520 and shame, but they feel similar and look similar. 316 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:41,160 And so I kind of developed a screening tool that helped me recognize when I was experiencing 317 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,840 godly sorrow and when I was experiencing false condemnation. 318 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,680 And it has two different pieces to it. 319 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:55,260 So the first piece is that false condemnation tends to be very vague and it tends to be 320 00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:57,920 spiritually paralyzing. 321 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:03,880 So for example, it's going to be thoughts like, I'm such a screw up. 322 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,520 I never do anything right. 323 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,640 I must have done something to deserve this. 324 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,800 And you're kind of racking your brain to think, you know, what is this mystery sin that I 325 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,400 did that brought this situation into my life? 326 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:23,560 And if that has been a struggle for someone today, I just, I would like you to ask yourself 327 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:29,960 if a vague accusations make sense from God's perspective. 328 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:37,720 Because his goal through godly sorrow is when the Holy Spirit convicts you of a specific 329 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,840 behavior so that you can make positive behavior changes. 330 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,760 And so Paul describes godly sorrow like this. 331 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,520 This is from second Corinthians seven verses 10 through 11. 332 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:58,520 For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. 333 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,120 There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. 334 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:05,960 To see what this godly sorrow has produced in you, such earnestness, such concern to 335 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,520 clear yourselves. 336 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,560 You show that you've done everything necessary to make things right. 337 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:19,680 And so to me, a big indicator of godly sorrow is that it's action oriented, and it's encouraging 338 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,760 you to partner with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like. 339 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:29,240 It's catalyst for change and those feelings of false condemnation that are vague and spiritually 340 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:35,360 paralyzing those just tend to hang out in your head and make you feel worthless. 341 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:41,280 And they actually distract from the good you can do because you get so bogged down and 342 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:49,200 so discouraged that you feel spiritually paralyzed and like you can't move forward or that you 343 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,400 can't connect with God because the feelings have made you feel unworthy of his attention. 344 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:01,680 And in that way, it can break connection and can be a very destructive force. 345 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:12,560 And so that's one key piece to recognizing when it's godly sorrow or when it is feelings 346 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,360 of false condemnation. 347 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:22,200 Another piece that was really helpful for me was thinking, would a doctor connect to 348 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,440 my behavior with my physical condition? 349 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,020 Because I think sometimes our mind just plays tricks on us. 350 00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:34,080 Most of the battles in my life, if I could take the battles, David, that I've had in 351 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:41,880 my body and separate them from all the fear and mental battles and insecurities I've had 352 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,560 during this battle with chronic illness, I think I would have saved myself at least two 353 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,040 thirds of the suffering I've experienced. 354 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:56,540 And so your mind can play tricks on you and it's easy sometimes when you're just trying 355 00:26:56,540 --> 00:27:04,560 to answer that why question to relate your chronic illness to a behavior that a doctor 356 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,560 would say is unrelated. 357 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:11,000 And so that can be just kind of a practical piece to tack on to the spiritual piece as 358 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,400 a little check for yourself. 359 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,880 Yeah. 360 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:21,120 Well, I appreciate that because I think that which is truly spiritual will also be practical 361 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:26,800 and those were together to bring about some change, some transformation in our lives. 362 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,720 And it causes me just to reflect, and you've alluded to this throughout this conversation, 363 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,760 really the goodness and the nature of God and His intent toward us. 364 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:42,840 He didn't intervene dramatically in history through sending His Son to condemn us. 365 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,200 That wasn't His, He didn't need to intervene if that's what He was going to do. 366 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,560 He wants to save us. 367 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,160 He wants to bring about what is good in our lives and good for beneficial to us in terms 368 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,400 of transformation into a more Christ-like person. 369 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,480 And you say that, and I wanted to read this quote from your book from the same subject, 370 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:09,000 false condemnation breaks connection with God, but godly sorrow builds relationship 371 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:14,840 as you join forces with the Holy Spirit to pursue a more Christ-like you. 372 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,560 And I think that was beautifully said and powerfully said. 373 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:26,840 Part of it for me too is to, and so as we interpret all these things that are going 374 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:34,440 on in our lives, we can, as you give us these helpful tools, can kind of categorize, okay, 375 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:40,000 what seems to be the intent of this particular thought or attitude in my mind. 376 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:46,160 And if it isn't for good and it isn't for our transformation to a more Christ-like person, 377 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,520 then we can understand that that's not coming from God. 378 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:55,280 And I think that really does help if we remember the intent of God toward us in His nature 379 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,960 and at work in our lives. 380 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:04,840 And one of the things I was going to say is just for me, I was a disciple of Jesus before 381 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,680 chronic illness and chronic pain entered into my life. 382 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:13,920 And although that is a great altering and kind of redefining event when it happens, 383 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:21,160 it does not change my perspective or goal that I still want to be a disciple of Jesus. 384 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,240 And now I'm looking for how God is going to use that in my life. 385 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,440 And I admit when it first came into my life, I'm saying this, you said you've been dealing 386 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,360 with chronic illness for 13 years, isn't that right? 387 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:37,520 Let's see, mine started in 2011, so it's been 15 years. 388 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,760 So yeah, the same amount of time that you have, although you're starting at a younger 389 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,560 age, which has its own implications, I think, especially when you're right at the beginning 390 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,400 of something like a new marriage and beginning of your career and all that. 391 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,180 For me, it kind of hit me midstream. 392 00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:59,000 My kids were born, I was already in my career, but it then caused this major shift in what 393 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,280 all that was going to look like. 394 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,900 And there were a lot of questions. 395 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:06,280 And I wasn't ready to hear in the very beginning about all the good things that God is going 396 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,640 to do through my chronic illness, because I just wanted to say, yeah, but I don't want 397 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,640 this. 398 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,040 OK, that was my focus early on. 399 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,120 And then as I kept saying that, every time I'd go to the doctor, it was like something 400 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,880 worse seemed to be coming into my life, or it was worse than we even realized. 401 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,900 And that went on for really first two or three years of dealing with that. 402 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:27,240 But I still come back to it. 403 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,920 But I never lost sight of the overall goal in my life. 404 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,560 I want to be a follower of Jesus. 405 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,360 And I know people that are listening to this may be coming from different backgrounds, 406 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,200 maybe not everyone that hears this is a Christian. 407 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,200 I don't know. 408 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,680 But for those of us who are Christians and we want to follow Jesus, then ultimately we 409 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,120 do want to kind of reach a point where we're looking to see, well, how is God using this? 410 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:57,320 How is he using the Holy Spirit in my life, as you say, to pursue a more Christ like you? 411 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:05,200 And those things don't have to do with false condemnation or any of the negative accusation 412 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,000 kind of things that we've talked about. 413 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:13,760 They have everything to do rather with things like godly sorrow and the idea of discipline 414 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:14,760 instead of punishment. 415 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,960 And again, those are two very different things conceptually, even though we may see them 416 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:19,960 as overlapping. 417 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,000 But I know and look for God to use things to discipline me in my life to be more like 418 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,000 Christ. 419 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,880 And that's a totally different purpose than punishment. 420 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,360 So I really thank you for bringing those out. 421 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:37,240 You also make the claim that and I think this is important and can be something that lifts 422 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,380 a burden, but healing doesn't depend on you. 423 00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:45,200 So I wanted to ask why you think that point is important for the chronic illness sufferer 424 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,200 to know? 425 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,240 Why is that even something that we need to emphasize that healing doesn't? 426 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,240 Yes. 427 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,800 Well, there's just so many multiple factors at play. 428 00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:00,760 You know, I look at the story of the man born blind that Jesus heals. 429 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,720 And even, you know, back in biblical times, the very first question that the disciples 430 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:12,560 ask him about the man born blind is who sinned, his parents or him that he was born this way. 431 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,560 And so that just shows you where her mindset is right there. 432 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:21,240 They didn't even have a question if sin had been committed, just who did it? 433 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:29,240 And Jesus's response was so revolutionary because he says, you know, this occurred so 434 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,120 that the glory of God may be manifest in the life of this man. 435 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,520 I'm sorry, I'm trying to pull that verse from memory and a little off there, but that's 436 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,640 the gist of the message. 437 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,000 And yes. 438 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:52,680 And so in that one sentence, Jesus gives this man who has been just assumed to be a sinner 439 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,080 his entire life, he gives him the gift of dignity. 440 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,400 He says that God sees him as important to his kingdom. 441 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,920 And I think we can ask ourselves, you know, instead of asking ourselves, is God punishing 442 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,920 me? 443 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,740 You know, is God calling me to a higher purpose? 444 00:33:11,740 --> 00:33:15,520 And what is his purpose in this in my life? 445 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,880 And so that is an incredibly encouraging story. 446 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,160 But also, it just healing doesn't just depend on you. 447 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,040 There's a story about a paralytic that Jesus heals, the one that was lowered down through 448 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,040 the roof. 449 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,160 That was always one of my favorite Bible school stories growing up. 450 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:41,240 And the Bible says there that when he saw their faith, and you know, it's such an easy 451 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,040 little word to kind of jump over. 452 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,320 But that one word there, he's speaking about the friends, the four friends who lowered 453 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,720 the man down through the roof. 454 00:33:51,720 --> 00:34:00,000 And so I think that is so beautiful, because it means that if we come to a place in life, 455 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,280 where we have just kind of had it with suffering and are just weary in our souls, that God 456 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:15,320 can use the faith of people around us to intervene on our behalf and can respond to that. 457 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:22,760 And so it's not just on our shoulders, family and friends need to get involved, too. 458 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,280 And a third point just to remember is that, you know, Jesus says in this world, you will 459 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,560 have trouble but take heart because I have overcome the world. 460 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:39,240 And if you look at the lives of some of the most faithful Christians in history, you know, 461 00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:44,720 Paul had an unspecified thorn in his side. 462 00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:47,280 And by that they meant some sort of physical ailment. 463 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,160 The Bible doesn't really tell us more specifics on what that was. 464 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,900 But we know it must have been annoying because Paul goes on record saying that he pleaded 465 00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:00,400 with God three times to take it away. 466 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:06,880 And you know, God says that through this, he's teaching Paul, his strength is sufficient. 467 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:14,800 And you know, Paul, he wrote, you're a pastor, so I know I wrote this down in my book, but 468 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,360 just trying to call it up from memory. 469 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,360 Is it 27? 470 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:24,800 He wrote 27 or 13 of the books of the New Testament. 471 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:34,280 Yeah, there's 27. 472 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,880 I know I fact-checked that before writing it in my book. 473 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,560 And you know, he was the first missionary to the Gentiles. 474 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,720 And so he had a huge ministry. 475 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:52,720 But if you want more modern day examples, you know, Mother Teresa, she had surgery to 476 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:55,720 get a heart pacemaker. 477 00:35:55,720 --> 00:36:02,280 Billy Graham, in the last years of his life, dealt with Parkinson's disease. 478 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:09,820 And C.S. Lewis, who I love his writings, you know, he died at age 64 from kidney failure. 479 00:36:09,820 --> 00:36:14,640 And so these are people who are kind of giants of the faith. 480 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:22,840 And so I particularly kind of key into that when I'm fighting internal accusations of 481 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,360 like, do you have enough faith to be healed? 482 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,920 Because these are people who preach Jesus to millions and still had health problems. 483 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,680 And so sometimes I think we just don't know why God allows certain things and just have 484 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:46,040 to trust that he's calling something good out of it and that it will be redeemed. 485 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,720 And I think you're making the point now as well as in your book, because there is a lot 486 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:56,080 of harmful theology out there that kind of ends up intersecting with the lives of the 487 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,120 people that are listening to this podcast and people in the chronic illness community 488 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,640 in general, where they're told sometimes by their own church backgrounds, whether on a 489 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,560 higher level, like a denominational level, or but more personally by people close to 490 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,360 them. 491 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,200 Not only in some way could this be their fault, but if you continue to be sick, it remains 492 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,200 your fault. 493 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,240 You know, that is because you don't have enough faith to be healed. 494 00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:28,480 And I've encountered that very thing in my church here, but I've seen Woodward, I have. 495 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,680 And it's just tragic and sad. 496 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,400 And it's really honestly, it's just a lie. 497 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:42,560 And even if you go and read the passage in James, where James is talking about if we 498 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,840 are sick, to call on the elders to pray for us, anoint us with oil and talks about we 499 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,440 will be healed in that situation. 500 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,960 And that if you look at that more closely, that is a much more nuanced thing than what 501 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,240 people make it out to be. 502 00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:59,840 But what I notice is that where the burden of faith is there, as far as the effectiveness 503 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,080 of the prayer is on the people that were praying for you, not necessarily for the person who 504 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:09,520 had the illness, which kind of goes in line with what you were saying about the paralytic 505 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,920 and the fact that Jesus commends the faith of the friends. 506 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,160 And certainly, well, that might have included the paralytic. 507 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:16,160 We don't know. 508 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,160 But that is interesting. 509 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,600 And I think that it's not insignificant that Jesus forgives the man's sins in connection 510 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,600 with their faith and what they and what they're and then ultimately does heal him from his 511 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,600 paralysis. 512 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:35,520 I think it's also interesting in that story that he forgives the man's sins before he 513 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:41,080 heals him of his paralysis and shows that certainly Jesus is concerned about his paralysis. 514 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,960 But there's something other things that Jesus is concerned about, too. 515 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,240 And he speaks to both our spiritual and physical needs. 516 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:54,920 You say on 52, page 52 of your book, and that's another just interesting. 517 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,160 You say so many things, I think, that are thought provoking and interesting. 518 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,000 And this is another one of those examples. 519 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,040 Sometimes it takes an even greater miracle of faith to keep believing in God's goodness 520 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,720 when your prayers go unanswered. 521 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:07,720 Why? 522 00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:11,200 So, can you unpack that? 523 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:17,160 It just takes courage to continue to believe in the face of hardship. 524 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:26,560 And you know, it takes bravery and it also takes a commitment to instead of turning away 525 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:33,000 in anger, I think it's okay to feel angry, but coming to God to process that anger and 526 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,520 to process your grief with him is just so important. 527 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:46,920 And you know, he's big enough to handle our honesty. 528 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:53,720 But it also, you know, digging deep into your emotions, like it can be painful within itself. 529 00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:59,360 And so believing that God can help you work through something and doing the work to do 530 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,240 that day by day, because a lot of the things I mentioned in my book, David, just are things 531 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:11,280 to help fight lies, things for different mental battles that I had along the way. 532 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,880 And the thing about that is like I mentioned the magic pill earlier, like these aren't 533 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,880 really a magic pill either. 534 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:25,160 They're things, they're positive habits that you develop that over time, as you speak God's 535 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:30,840 truth into yourself, as you practice, you know, what the Bible is saying and kind of 536 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:37,960 stand on God's promises, you look back and you realize that, you know, I'm not bitter 537 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:38,960 anymore. 538 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:39,960 I'm not angry anymore. 539 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,600 You know, I've been growing in peace. 540 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:49,920 But it's something that has to be worked at and has to be followed day to day. 541 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:58,560 And so I think, yes, I think it takes more courage and to be open for God to do miracles 542 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:05,040 other than healing in the concept that we think of it just as physical healing, because 543 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,840 in the 13 years I've had chronic illness, I think the biggest miracle for me, and I 544 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:17,080 do consider this to be a miracle, is that now, I mean, many points along the way, if 545 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,040 you would ask me if I wanted to revert to my old life, I would have said yes. 546 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:28,200 But I've come to a point where I've realized that I'm not the same person I was. 547 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,720 Not that I was a bad person before, but I've just changed and grown in ways that I wouldn't 548 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:34,600 have otherwise. 549 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:41,720 And I like the person I am on the inside better now than I think I would have liked the person 550 00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:44,960 I would have been without these challenges. 551 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:53,680 And just the miracle I see is that I love myself in my life again, despite chronic illness. 552 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,520 And for many years, that was something that I thought was impossible. 553 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:06,080 That's an awesome perspective, and it does take a little while sometimes for us to gain 554 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,320 that perspective, especially in the early part of our journey. 555 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:14,800 So we are allowing for recognizing that people are all along the journey, but we encourage 556 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:15,800 you to stay on the journey. 557 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,080 And like you said, don't turn away from God in your anger. 558 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:24,440 If you're angry, give it to God, but continue to hold on and let God bring out what He's 559 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:25,440 going to bring out. 560 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,640 And one way to look at it is we're going to go through it anyway. 561 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,560 It's much better if we can go through it in participation with God in our life to bring 562 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,400 something positive into our life through it. 563 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,840 And you talk about the character change that has come about in your own life. 564 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,200 And I could say a similar thing. 565 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:51,280 I think I wasn't the most empathetic person 13 years ago, even though I was in pastoral 566 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,280 ministry. 567 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,480 I mean, I knew how to say, well, I'm sorry, but the kind of with the best of them. 568 00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,840 But I really didn't get it on an experiential level, really suffering and what people were 569 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,960 going through. 570 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,960 And it becomes a point where I couldn't really put a price on what I've learned and how I've 571 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:14,160 grown if, you know, through this experience of dealing with these ups and downs of the 572 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,680 chronic pain and chronic illness. 573 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,280 Now, not everyone, as this will be a shock to no one, not everyone that we encounter 574 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:27,360 will be fully understanding of what this journey is like and not everyone is going to say helpful 575 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:28,360 things. 576 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,000 I think you do a great job of talking about that in your book and talking about, you know, 577 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,440 the need for grace where we can have it. 578 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:40,880 And also the need sometimes to recognize that not every relationship that we have with someone 579 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:46,840 necessitates a response if they say something as harmful. 580 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,040 But sometimes it does. 581 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:53,320 And sometimes there are people close to us that may say something that really was hurtful 582 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,160 and we need we need to address it. 583 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,720 You talk about kind of a pulling off period and setting up a time, you know, to have that 584 00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:00,720 conversation. 585 00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:04,240 I think that's just that's just good practical advice in any case, but especially in dealing 586 00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:06,120 with this issue. 587 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,440 And this is a key point. 588 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:13,080 I thought I'm trying or in trying to cope with their own confusion or disappointment. 589 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:18,360 They may find it easier to question you than to question God. 590 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:24,240 So my question to you is how can this realization help us to have grace toward others and shape 591 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:26,440 our approach when we respond? 592 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,440 Yes. 593 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:34,560 So when I face accusations from others, I kind of take three different things into me 594 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,800 with that and deciding how to respond. 595 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:44,000 And first, like you said, you got to pick your because we face so many as people with 596 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,440 chronic illness, whether it's finances or physical battles, mental battles. 597 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,200 So if it's someone you don't know that well, sometimes you just got to smile and let those 598 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:59,560 things slide off and just don't let them steal any more of your joy. 599 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,080 But then you do run across people you need to engage with. 600 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,160 And that's more those conversations are more difficult. 601 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,720 But like you said, cooling off, finding a time when you're not going to be interrupted, 602 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:15,320 where you can sit down and talk together. 603 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,800 Also, I think it'd be helpful to bring somebody supportive with you. 604 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:27,200 And the piece you were talking about, you know, in the quote you said, with trying to 605 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,480 cope with their own confusion or disappointment, others may find it easier to question you 606 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,860 than question God. 607 00:45:33,860 --> 00:45:39,480 Something that was really freeing for me, I had a situation where somebody I loved and 608 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,120 cared about. 609 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:47,200 I alluded to it earlier, I kind of confessed in a moment of frustration that I still had 610 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,840 some feelings of anger with God at times. 611 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,360 And, you know, that person kind of thought about it and they were like, well, maybe you 612 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,960 would receive more healing if you repented of that. 613 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,440 And that was that was very hurtful for me. 614 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:06,600 But this is also someone that I know have been praying for me for years. 615 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:12,920 And so I think sometimes people, you know, we have short attention spans when we pray 616 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:17,440 for other people, we want God to get in there and fix their problems. 617 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:24,560 And I think sometimes people are trying to figure out, you know, why it hasn't happened. 618 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,560 And they might feel confused and disappointed about it, too. 619 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,800 And so then they start to question maybe something they've done. 620 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:40,640 And I've also come across people that are very critical of themselves and have trouble 621 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,320 accepting God's grace for themselves. 622 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,120 And that can tend to make them a little more judgmental towards others. 623 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,760 And it's sad. 624 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,640 And both of these responses are hurtful. 625 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:59,000 But when I think about the people I know who gave me these responses, I realize, you know, 626 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:05,760 that they wanted healing for me and that in their own way, maybe they were trying to help 627 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,960 me find it. 628 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,160 And considering that that was their motivation, kind of help take the sting out of it a little 629 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:18,760 bit, just knowing that they wanted healing for me and allowed me to respond a little 630 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,960 more lovingly. 631 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,040 And at the end of the day, you just have to be convinced of your own righteousness in 632 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:29,720 Christ and just get in and stand on what the Bible says. 633 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:34,000 Because despite your best efforts, sometimes people just refuse to be persuaded. 634 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,280 And that's why you have to give God's voice first place in your heart. 635 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:39,280 Yeah. 636 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,800 Well said. 637 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:49,600 You know, it's kind of that power of differentiation, you know, where I recognize that what is my 638 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,800 problem and what is your problem. 639 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:58,080 And I can't really control if you have some really misguided theology that is causing 640 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,440 you to think incorrect things about myself or what's happening in my life with God and 641 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:08,240 where we can suggest or offer a general correction. 642 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:09,240 That's great. 643 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:14,080 But like at the end of the day, we have to know, as you said, kind of where we stand 644 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:19,920 with what is true and not not kind of take in someone else's untruth about us and make 645 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,160 it our own. 646 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,120 And so I think that's such great advice. 647 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,120 I appreciate it. 648 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,080 I look forward to reading the rest of the book. 649 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,800 I wanted to know, do you have any other writing projects in the works? 650 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:38,680 Well, I never say I have to be an author, so this has been a surprise to me. 651 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:45,000 Also, it was funny because after finishing this book, I found this little paper that 652 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:51,040 I made in kindergarten that my mom had kept that said I wanted to be an author. 653 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,040 I had no memory of writing that. 654 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,840 So I was like, that's kind of a funny little God moment. 655 00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,360 Maybe it was a little seed from the beginning. 656 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,920 My training was in elementary education. 657 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:09,200 I wasn't able to teach full time after all my symptoms developed. 658 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,880 But I did teach preschool part time for seven years and absolutely loved it. 659 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:20,520 So I actually have a ton of ideas for children's books that I would love to write if I get 660 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,400 the chance to do more publishing down the way. 661 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,560 Because as a teacher, I came across things and most of them are about spiritual concepts 662 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:28,560 too. 663 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:35,080 I spent so much trying to explain spiritual concepts in simple terms to my preschoolers. 664 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,560 Sometimes you would just want a better book for something or there wasn't a book out 665 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,000 there that kind of covered a certain topic. 666 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:50,080 If you see something from me in the future, that might be in the children's section. 667 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,560 Okay. 668 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,840 That would be awesome. 669 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,720 People can find out about your ministry at shannoncramerrights.com. 670 00:49:56,720 --> 00:49:58,120 Is that correct? 671 00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,880 And Kramer is spelled with a C. 672 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,400 That's Kramer with a C. 673 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:03,400 Okay, yeah. 674 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,440 Let's clarify that too. 675 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,000 And also you do some inspirational speaking and I believe there's information about that 676 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,440 on your website. 677 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:18,720 And people can take advantage of reaching out to you about that as well. 678 00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:24,080 And there might be something in the works here between a broken amended and yourself 679 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,080 in that regard. 680 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,360 And so we'll see what develops there. 681 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:33,120 But we're excited about any future opportunities that God gives us to collaborate together. 682 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,200 And again, just want to thank you Shannon so much for being here. 683 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,360 Just a really wonderful conversation. 684 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,080 And I know it will be a blessing to many people. 685 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,720 And I recommend that people get this book. 686 00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,160 Again, How to Keep Believing When You're Suffering. 687 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,760 We'll have links to it in the show notes. 688 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,720 And it will just be a blessing to you. 689 00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:53,360 And we want you to get that. 690 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,320 And one mention also, you can go to brokenamended.org to get more information about our ministry 691 00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:58,840 and our history. 692 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,080 If you're in a position to be able to consider partnering with us financially, and I say 693 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,480 that always with the qualification, we know that a lot of people that have chronic illness 694 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,760 or chronic pain are in a position where they are not able to do that because of the financial 695 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:12,760 burden. 696 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,120 But if you are and want to partner with us, you can do that on our website and support 697 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,880 resources like this podcast, as well as the curriculum and things that we are writing 698 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,920 and producing and it's going all over the world. 699 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:30,240 In fact, I will be in Kenya next week for a couple of weeks and excited about that. 700 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:34,360 But we're there because we got something like 150 support groups, broken amended support 701 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,160 groups in Kenya. 702 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,440 One of our challenges, just so you know, is getting enough materials to them as fast as 703 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,600 they go through it and use it. 704 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:43,880 And it's growing so fast there. 705 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,540 So that's one way you can partner with us there. 706 00:51:46,540 --> 00:51:50,040 But more than anything, we want you to take advantage of the resources that are available. 707 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,000 And you can find all that at brokenamended.org. 708 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,720 And so again, thank you for being with us, Shannon. 709 00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:58,960 I want to thank our listeners. 710 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:05,640 Thank you for our producer, Andres, who has been behind the scenes here with us all throughout 711 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,440 this episode. 712 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:12,440 And thankful also for John that will do some very important editing and everyone that works 713 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:13,840 to put this together. 714 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,680 So we will say goodbye for now. 715 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:25,880 And we pray that God will be with you on this journey.