1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:22,200 Welcome to In the Seams, a podcast by Broken and Mended. And now your host, David Heflin. 2 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,340 Want to welcome you back to In the Seams and we are glad to have you. If you're, as you're 3 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:33,600 listening with us today, I'm excited to have a guest here, Dr. Terry Powell, whom I will 4 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:39,760 refer to as Terry throughout the conversation. And Terry, first of all, I just want to say 5 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,860 thank you for being with us. I've been looking forward to this conversation as we've been 6 00:00:44,860 --> 00:00:50,800 working out getting this scheduled. I think for our audience's benefit, I'd like to read 7 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,800 a little bit from one of your books here and it's on the back of your book. Can you see 8 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:01,840 the cross from there? Grace in Grit for Sufferers and Sinners. I love the title by Terry Powell 9 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,680 and it's got a little bit of a bio here that I think will be helpful for those that will 10 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:11,680 be listening that will be new to your works and your ministry. It says Terry Powell is 11 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:18,280 faculty emeritus. Emeritus. Okay. Yeah. I stumbled over that. Wasn't ready for it. In 12 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:24,400 church ministry at Columbia International University in South Carolina, where he taught for 38 13 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,440 years, he served as a Christian education director on two church staffs for a total 14 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:35,600 of 12 years. And he's a licensed preacher in the PCA or Presbyterian Church in America. 15 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,640 Terry has taught and trained national church or Christian leaders overseas in numerous 16 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:47,760 countries. He's the author of 20 books and writes a blog on depression and faith at penetrating 17 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,920 the darkness dot com. A couple of these books we will have links to in the show notes, including 18 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:58,040 this one, your newest one. I'll also put that website in the show notes as well where people 19 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:04,520 can go directly to that website. In addition to his bride of over 52 years, Terry has two 20 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,920 grown sons, a daughter-in-law and a grandson. His hobbies include reading novels and writing 21 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:18,120 poetry. His constant prayer is, Lord, make me half the man my dog thinks I am. And Terry, 22 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:24,320 and I were kind of laughing at that beforehand as we both enjoy our dogs. And yeah, I do 23 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:30,120 agree our dogs have a higher estimation of us and is probably warranted. But let me again 24 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,120 just welcome you to In the Seams and I want to thank you for being with us. 25 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:42,600 Thank you. Very brief introduction to me. I am 74. My bride is 73, but she looks younger, 26 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:48,760 but I don't. I make up for it. And we had a 53rd-anniversary last week, two grown sons 27 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:55,240 and a grandson. I grew up in western North Carolina, almost in the mountains, not quite. 28 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,240 And a big love of my young life was baseball. I didn't care much for school, but I played 29 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:08,120 baseball through college. I lettered at two universities and was a pitcher and hard to 30 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:15,280 give up my dream of praying in the majors. I was good, but not quite that good. I also 31 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,240 started writing poetry when I had my first crush in the sixth grade. So I write my wife 32 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:28,720 a lot of poems and my friends and occasionally my sons. And I also have the, I teach a class 33 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:35,920 each year at the university. I retired after 38 years and a professor of church ministry 34 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:44,220 and sun Bible and Bible teaching in 2019. So now I teach one course a year and write 35 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:48,400 and do some pulpit supply. 36 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,680 Well it sounds like you are staying busy with a lot of good things. And I also want to just 37 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:59,200 congratulate you on your 53rd, I think you just said, anniversary. And so that's wonderful. 38 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,200 And thank you for telling us a little bit about yourself. And it sounds like you have 39 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:11,280 acquired a range of skills and interest. I think the one I am probably most envious of is 40 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:18,320 the writing poetry part. I have not been any good at that. And so I think it takes a special 41 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,200 gift to be able to endeavor into that at all really, but to be able to do it for so long. 42 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,760 And I'm sure your wife and others have really appreciated that over the years. Terry, what 43 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:33,240 brings us together today of course is we're going to talk a little bit about mental health 44 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,360 issues and for us with Broken and Mended, which focuses primarily on people struggling 45 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,860 with chronic pain and chronic illness. We actually have talked about this issue several 46 00:04:42,860 --> 00:04:48,120 times on in the seams and I've written about it and had others write about it as well in 47 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,240 our in our blogs because there's so much overlap between those that are struggling with chronic 48 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:58,680 physical illnesses and those that are struggling with mental illnesses as well. I myself have 49 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,860 been through that. I have battled depression over the years, especially, and mine does 50 00:05:02,860 --> 00:05:08,440 seem to be directly correlated to the pain. When my pain is worse, the depression and 51 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:15,000 struggle is worse there as well. When I'm feeling a little bit better, maybe not surprisingly, 52 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,840 that issue is not as prevalent. But of course, not everyone has that direct correlation there 53 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:28,040 because many, many factors can lead to depression and be a trigger or a factor in that. I wondered 54 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:34,080 if you might start by telling us a little bit about yourself and in terms of your journey 55 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:40,760 with depression, your and kind of how this has evolved into a ministry for you. As a 56 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:47,400 boy, when I look back now retrospectively, I realized I was often depressed, but I didn't 57 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:53,160 know how to voice it. We lived in the country. My parents had an elementary school education 58 00:05:53,160 --> 00:06:00,560 and the idea of getting counseling therapy for us wasn't there. They didn't know what 59 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:06,520 to do with me sometimes. I would often be hypersensitive, very easily hurt compared 60 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:14,320 to the norm. I was very melancholy and temperament. I also would call, especially on weekends 61 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,660 when structure was less, I would sometimes sit on the back porch to look at the sun go 62 00:06:19,660 --> 00:06:25,960 down and sit there in great hopelessness and despair. And I didn't have a circumstantial 63 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:31,840 reason for it. There wasn't anything happened. I wasn't beaten. I wasn't mistreated by my 64 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:40,120 parents. They were believers. I just felt sad, especially late in the day. It was like 65 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:46,120 sundowner syndrome. And I look back now and I realize that was depression in childhood. 66 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:52,200 I didn't know how to deal with it. As a teen, very unstable. I did not study hard. I was 67 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:59,320 a very average C student in high school. It's miraculous that I became a professor. But 68 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:07,360 I would be extremely shy to a fault, anxious, very negative in my thinking toward myself. 69 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,880 I cried myself to sleep literally scores of nights, wishing I could be more outgoing toward 70 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:19,520 girls. I was a 6'4", 215 pound athlete. Oh, to weigh that again. And I looked back at 71 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,840 my pictures and thought, I'm not bad looking, but I had an extremely negative self-image. And 72 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,400 my parents didn't pound that negative image into me. I just had it. So I never dated and 73 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,680 I cried. I'd go into sock hops after Friday night football games I attended and I'd sit 74 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:41,080 in the corner and cry, wishing I could be normal and dance. Of course, I never did. Didn't 75 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:48,000 date in high school at all. As an adult, depression shows sometimes with total numbness. I can't 76 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,980 feel anything. I can go through the motions of my ministry. I can go to a class and get 77 00:07:52,980 --> 00:07:58,260 enthusiastic on my subject matter, but then be depressed before and after. It didn't seem 78 00:07:58,260 --> 00:08:05,480 to impact my classes a lot. So I had functional depression. But the other end of it is either 79 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:11,080 robotic or numb. And then other times I'm hypersensitive. I can hear a song from like 80 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:17,160 an oldie goldie from the late 60s when I was in high school and college. And I start crying 81 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:22,880 almost automatically because those were painful days emotionally and socially for me. So I 82 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:29,840 don't know which extreme is worse. But to God's glory and grace, I don't think I've 83 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:35,040 ever missed a ministry because of it. But I've often had it before I would get up to 84 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:42,240 fill a pulpit and God somehow just turned me loose because I was well prepared. But 85 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:48,680 I have started talking about it and writing about it beginning in 2003, which was the 86 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:54,200 end of the worst two-year period of my life. Ironically, in God's sense of humor, it was 87 00:08:54,200 --> 00:09:00,600 my highest rated year of 38 years at Columbia National University. But I even stopped class 88 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:06,240 once and crying over something that I didn't even understand and had to go wash my face 89 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:11,240 and come back and finish. But somehow those students saw that as strength rather than 90 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:18,360 weakness. But in 2003, I sent my testimony while I was in the midst of depression on 91 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,680 how God sustained me because I'd been having a lot of it along with anxiety most of my 92 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:28,400 life. It wasn't that I was never happy that I never laughed. It's just I had periodic 93 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:33,880 episodes throughout the year. And I wrote a testimony that was published by Discipleship 94 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:39,680 Journal of the Navigators long before they stopped the magazine due to finances. And 95 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:45,120 it was put up on the New York secular mental health website to foreign countries, foreign 96 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,640 languages. I don't even know which ones published it in their language. And I got a lot of letters 97 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:55,160 from it. They weren't used to someone, especially a man being that transparent. I didn't share 98 00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:01,840 how God cured my depression. I simply say I have it. Nothing has taken it away. Meds 99 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,120 helped for a while and I believe in them. Counseling can help to deal with certain symptoms 100 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:14,560 relationally and how you treat people. But it had never gone away. And I and before I 101 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:19,120 wrote that article, I was driving out of state on a Sunday afternoon to go teach at a church 102 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,440 in Florence, South Carolina. And my son had been praying gotten to fight with somebody 103 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:32,680 who he thought was a glib about my depression. He was defending me. I prayed my wife, obviously, 104 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:37,960 I had been to counseling off and on, took meds for years and they'd send to me 105 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:45,840 no help. It can help some people, but it didn't help me a lot. And on the way to that 90-minute 106 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:52,760 drive, on Sunday afternoon, I did something a little strange. I surrendered to my depression. 107 00:10:52,760 --> 00:11:00,040 I said, Lord, and I didn't do this glibly. I said, Lord, I have prayed. I have memorized 108 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,320 scripture to encourage me and those things sustain me and keep me going and may even 109 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:10,480 alleviate the worst of an episode. But you haven't taken it away. The common grace of 110 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,820 medicine and counseling helped a little but it didn't take this away. You must intend 111 00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:25,300 it for good. I said this through tears, David. I give you this and I ask you to redeem it. 112 00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:29,920 What do you want me to do with it if you don't take it away? I have to believe God's sovereign. 113 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,360 What are the implications of the fact that we've used special means of grace, common 114 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,720 graces, and it's still there for me. And I thought it was not audible, but I just felt 115 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,440 the Holy Spirit saying I want to use it. And about two months later, I did a proposal and 116 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:51,560 Discipleship Journal published my article, Hope in the midst of Depression. And I just 117 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:57,000 shared means of grace, how scripture helps, how friends help, how honest praying helps 118 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:03,280 and other things, not to take it away, but to sustain and use me in spite of it. So they 119 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:11,080 may see me as weak, but they see that God is strong. So I, he still all these years 120 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:18,640 later, 21 years later, I still have consistent episodes of down. I've learned more about 121 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,600 how to fight it. I've learned more about scripture memory, which is, it's not, I'm not throwing 122 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,800 the verse at a problem and it going away. I was accused of that. I served strong reader 123 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:35,680 once they didn't read the book closely. It's that promise that I cling to gives me hope. 124 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:40,640 And if God doesn't take it away now, I know there's a better future, but he also can alleviate 125 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,160 it now, shorten the stay and help me to deal with it, help me to serve others even when 126 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:53,140 I'm down that, which is not a normal thing for me. So I surrendered it and I've been 127 00:12:53,140 --> 00:13:00,200 broken most of my life with this, but it's ironic that it was not only that article and 128 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:06,720 a lot of letters from it. And 2014 after a suicide on campus, they asked me to student 129 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:12,680 like to give my testimony. And that's on my website, penetrating the darkness.com. If 130 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:18,920 you go there and click on about, there's a link to that 30-minute chapel talk where I 131 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:26,520 give a lot of scripture, but I give the raw symptoms of depression through episodes from 132 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:33,800 past year. And then I go into three means of grace and then, uh, and how does, doesn't 133 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,360 take it away from me, but he manages it. They wanted me to be transparent, knew I would 134 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,760 be so students who are hurting don't think that they're not living victoriously if they 135 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,520 just have depression necessarily. They wanted them to feel more free to go to a counselor 136 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:53,840 or a faculty member and Dean and settle it and deal with it. So, but then after that, 137 00:13:53,840 --> 00:14:02,680 I started my blog in 2017 and just the week, the days I'm down, I'll often get an email 138 00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:07,560 of something of a reader I've not heard from before and say how much they were encouraged 139 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:13,640 about my honesty and the means of grace that have helped me. So, uh, God seems to be using 140 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:18,240 it and, uh, and now he's given me a privilege to be on podcasts. 141 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,760 Yeah. Yeah. Amen. I'm certainly glad that you have followed God faithfully through this 142 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:30,360 journey and certainly resonate with the idea of surrender and brokenness and the moments 143 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,880 when it's not the moments that we say that we can't, we're most powerful. It's probably 144 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:40,360 the moments we say we can't, we can't without you God. And, um, so I really appreciate that. 145 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:46,960 And you might've alluded to it a couple of times. I did want to ask because I think from 146 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:53,720 a standpoint of chronic illness, chronic pain, that the church does get a lot wrong on that 147 00:14:53,720 --> 00:15:00,680 issue. And I know that it does with mental health issues as well. Um, and so I want to 148 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:07,000 get your perspective on that. What does the church often get wrong about mental health? 149 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,840 Uh, what, what, how can it grow and improve and how it speaks about and addresses this 150 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,060 issue? David, the landscape is improving because every 151 00:15:16,060 --> 00:15:22,440 year two or three, four or more books come out by counselors and some cases pastors who 152 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:28,560 struggle with, for example, depression, and yet they see it redemptively. They don't, 153 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,640 and God's using them. So we're improving it, but there's still the mindset that if 154 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:38,000 you just had more faith or are you living in disobedience, I have a neighbor, a good 155 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:44,680 man came to Christ late. He's near 70. Um, he did well in business. He's never been highly 156 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:50,960 sensitive or melancholy, but he doesn't understand. He thinks that I should have total control 157 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:57,120 over every emotion all the time as a Christian. And he made implications that I must be living 158 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:03,520 in some sin or some area of disobedience for me to struggle so much. And he doesn't realize 159 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:09,400 that in some ways God's using this pain to help others. Um, but he's not far enough along 160 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:14,720 to understand this because the causes of depression are a lot more complex than some people want 161 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,920 to admit. So yes, there's still misconceptions that perhaps a book that deals 162 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,840 with them briefly, but effectively is, uh, he's a pastor again. I think David Murray, 163 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:32,120 M-U-R-R-A-Y wrote a 115 page book a few years ago called Christians Get Depressed Too. It's 164 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:38,280 got in a simple brief book, it's got one of the best treatments of the misconceptions 165 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,600 and some research on depression. And he didn't come from his own experience, but from others 166 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:49,880 he knows, um, and talking about depression. By the way, um, if anyone listening, maybe 167 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:58,160 you could put this on your site too, would write me at terry.powell at C I U dot E D 168 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:05,240 U my email. I will send them electronically a two page list of resource organizations 169 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,920 and books and a few other bloggers that I know and, um, and so forth that I prepared 170 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:16,020 last year. Yeah, no, that'd be great. Uh, we will, we will put that email in the show 171 00:17:16,020 --> 00:17:21,880 notes as well as a link to, uh, David Murray's book that you brought up and some of these 172 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:27,320 other things that we're talking about. You know, I do think we, we have seen a little 173 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:35,720 bit of a, uh, growing, you know, some kind of a, a better understanding, some growth 174 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:41,340 toward this understanding of mental, mental health. And, and obviously people like yourself 175 00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:47,360 speaking up about it and has really helped that to take place. Unfortunately, there are 176 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:53,280 some, uh, prominent pastors and others that, uh, still sometimes try to set the church 177 00:17:53,280 --> 00:18:00,760 back by still implying or sometimes explicitly stating that, you know, that is a depression 178 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:08,880 is a cause of some spiritual, uh, malformation or immaturity or, uh, some, something lacking. 179 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,440 Uh, and, and I'm not going to mention his name today. There, uh, there's some people 180 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,880 might know. I wrote about it in my blog recently about a, a pretty well-known pastor who has 181 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:27,240 said some very detrimental and harmful things about unfortunate. Yeah, it is, it is, and 182 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,520 it hurts. It hurts a lot of people. Um, and so I think we have to continue speaking out 183 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,720 so that we can, in other words, we can't assume these miss, these misconceptions have been 184 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,120 corrected. Uh, and then we don't have to address them anymore because I think we do have these 185 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,720 setbacks because the people still talking about things, which they really don't know 186 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,640 about. Uh, I do want to talk a little bit about your books. You know, you, I know you've 187 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,240 written several books along, along these lines. I'm particularly going to ask questions here 188 00:18:53,240 --> 00:19:00,920 about the book, Serve Strong Biblical Encouragement to Sustain God's Servants. And that book, 189 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,320 I believe you told me as we were talking before we went live is, was written about 10 years 190 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,880 ago. I've read a little bit of it. I haven't got a chance to, to read the whole thing yet, 191 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,840 but what I've read has been very, um, very touching, very impactful for me. And so I 192 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,760 got some questions I want to ask about it, but let me just start with what is this book 193 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:28,720 about and why did you choose to write it? The book is roughly 27 comparatively short 194 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:35,160 chapters of principles and insights from God's Word that have sustained me through my years 195 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:41,280 of great depression and anxiety. Um, I've already mentioned it's not a cure, but what 196 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,880 are the truths that I, and from my devotion or reading of other books or whatnot that 197 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:53,800 have ministered to me to help me in vocational ministry, keep serving strong despite my tendency 198 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:59,840 for depression and my temperamental weakness. So this is springing from my experience. In 199 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,640 fact, in one of the chapters, I think it's a chapter called Captain of the Arnauts, where 200 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:10,520 I talk about D.L. Moody and his limitations that I give a page or two of my own testimony 201 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,520 in a very raw way about my depression. Now, the book is not just for Christian workers 202 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:22,760 who are depressed, but I've had a lot of notes about it because I give that abbreviated testimony 203 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:28,200 within the book. The book tries to combat the tendency that's all of us in ministry, 204 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,840 whether we're depression prone or not, we're going to experience some opposition. We're 205 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:38,840 going to experience various forms of spiritual warfare because we're in church work and ministry. 206 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,480 And we're going to have times of apparent barrenness where we don't see fruit. We may 207 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:50,200 be bearing it or planting seeds, but we may wonder if God's using us. We may be overworked 208 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,760 because a lot of pastors and other Christian leaders, missionaries are, and we're physically 209 00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:00,880 and emotionally exhausted. And we may feel inadequate when for certain tasks that are 210 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,920 integral to our work. So I wanted to say it's not just depression, but what are the truths 211 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,880 that can help people serve strong? Does it mean you won't be weak? In fact, I have a 212 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:16,160 chapter on the ministry of weakness. I have a chapter in the book on the ministry of pain. 213 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,800 I give stories from the life of Pastor Charles Spurgeon, who had both physical and emotional 214 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:28,280 issues. He was known to laugh a lot, but he also had depression. He said one time in his 215 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:34,080 20s, I weep like a baby and I can't tell you why. Another time he said, you might as well 216 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:40,800 fight with the morning mist as fight with this all be clouding hopelessness. And so, 217 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,520 but some biographers from way back do not mention this, but the book by Zach Eswine, 218 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,480 Spurgeon Sorrows is not just for pastors, but anybody in ministry who gets depressed 219 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:59,160 should read that. It's outstanding about how he handled it and his thoughts on it. Spurgeon 220 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:06,280 Sorrows, S-1-E-S-W-I-N-E. It's a paperback book that tells about his severe gout. He 221 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:15,480 died in around 58 and it's also his depression, which was intermittent, but it's very encouraging. 222 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,800 But I wrote Serve Strong, what I call for serious volunteer workers like a Sunday school 223 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,320 teacher or an elder in a church. If they're active in ministry or someone who shares their 224 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,240 faith, I've known laymen with the gift of evangelism that just share their faiths naturally. 225 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:35,080 If you do this, you're going to face opposition. So I have a whole chapter on the power of 226 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:40,000 God's word and his promises to use it. I have a chapter reminding of his presence when we're 227 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:46,360 doing ministry, whether we feel it or not. And I have a material dealing with the success 228 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:52,480 syndrome in ministry, which is a big part of Western culture and how God views success 229 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:58,240 somewhat differently than a lot of us do, even as conservative leaders. And the whole 230 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:04,640 bottom line is if we absorb these, we will be encouraged, at least I was. I'm sharing 231 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:12,080 what I've shared all through and on in classes since the 1980s, more later. And then I decided 232 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:18,400 about 2013, I want to write it because somebody else depressed or not could use this encouragement. 233 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:26,360 Sure. Yeah, I certainly appreciate it too, as a person who is a pastor and preacher. 234 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:31,440 And I think, you know, sometimes I'm speaking a little bit of confession here myself, I 235 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,360 want to project an image of strength that I got it all together, even though I know 236 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,360 that that's not true. And in my best moments, I know that that's actually not what's going 237 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:46,360 to help people. And I know there's a lot of pressure sometimes on people who, as you said, 238 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:53,680 are volunteers in churches and teachers and elders, as well as people who are paid staff, 239 00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:02,160 to always project an image of success and really a triumphalism type of faith. We end 240 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:07,560 up doing great harm to ourselves and to others when we do that. And it's not in step with 241 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,080 what the Bible teaches. Of course, I rely a lot there on the Apostle Paul. One of the 242 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:18,880 most impactful things he said to me that I remind myself often is this idea that I boast 243 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:25,200 in my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest on me or rest upon me. And I believe 244 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,360 that's in the 2 Corinthians 12. 12, 9, and 10. As you know, he thought his thorn in the 245 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:36,600 flesh, we're not told what it is, possibly a physical setback. He thought that limited 246 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,520 him and God says, no, that just keeps you from being proud in light of all I'm doing 247 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:46,840 through you and in you. So I've always defined brokenness. And I have two chapters on serve 248 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:55,120 strong on brokenness and illustrate it. But I know a person can be abused, go through 249 00:24:55,120 --> 00:25:02,240 horrible things like rape. And that's a type of brokenness that I'm not saying is good. 250 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:09,560 Overall, brokenness, if it results in a settled, what I call a subtle posture of my heart and 251 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:15,920 mind, where I'm more humble, I'm less prone to be self sufficient and trust myself and 252 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:23,920 a lot of my weakness or background, or I am more sepulous, worry less about what people 253 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:29,660 think about me, I'm more concerned about loving others, because some form of brokenness, whether 254 00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:35,280 that was an estrangement in relationship, or the loss of someone or a career that didn't 255 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:43,080 pan out something to make me humble, to cause me to have desperate dependence on the Lord, 256 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,640 and to give me a spirit of submission and say, All right, God, I'm ready to use me. 257 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:54,080 So God can redeem brokenness. In fact, he may use it, run down a late Southern Baptist 258 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,600 pastor, he wrote a couple of books before he died over 20 years ago, I believe. But he said 259 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:06,120 once on a tape I heard in the 1970s, he said, God keeps a man usable by keeping him weak. 260 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:10,240 That goes back to 2nd Quintian 12, 9 and 10, God says, I'm not going to remove this from 261 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:16,200 you're going to trust me and my strength for your weaknesses. And but he also said, this 262 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,960 is something that I see in my own depression, I see it in Johnny Erickson Tata, dramatically, 263 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:29,120 and others that he said, your greatest area of usefulness to God may stem from your greatest 264 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:36,920 area of pain. greatest area of usefulness to God may stem from their greatest area of 265 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,760 pain. Now, he was known to say, gee, you'll never know Jesus is all you need until he's 266 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,600 all you have left. And only years later, after many tears listening to his messages that 267 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,480 I discovered that before he made those takes, he found his teenage son dead of suicide on 268 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:59,200 Thanksgiving Day. So he had been broken, it didn't change his ministry, it didn't take 269 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,760 away his faith, but he had a sensitivity to hurting people out there like that. He was 270 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,440 broken in a good sense of his heart was broken and tender and he was desperately dependent 271 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,600 on the Lord for sustenance and ministry. 272 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:21,240 Yes, that's, that's, that's powerful. And I got the opportunity to read these chapters 273 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:27,320 on brokenness. And obviously, even it relates very well to what we're talking about in our 274 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:33,760 ministry broken and mended. And, you know, our the emphasis on mended really having to 275 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,880 do with the Japanese art form of Kintsugi, where you see the the gold in the scene, well, 276 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,260 hence the name of our podcast in the seams, you know, where where the precious metal is 277 00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:48,520 in the seams of our brokenness, where the glory of God shows through in our weakness 278 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:56,120 in such incredible biblical teaching on that throughout throughout the whole Bible, whole 279 00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:00,360 canon, whether we're talking back to books like the Book of Job or in the ministry of 280 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:06,360 Jesus. And I think most explicitly is spelled out in the ministry in the in the works of 281 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:12,800 Paul. But it is very different than what we see in our in our world in general. And unfortunately, 282 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:20,600 sometimes the church has been influenced too much by certainly the Western view of success. 283 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,820 And that has made it seem impossible for us at times to boast in our weaknesses, it's 284 00:28:25,820 --> 00:28:32,120 made it difficult for us to fully surrender. And I look back to earlier parts in my ministry, 285 00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:37,560 and I wanted to be surrendered, but maybe halfway and still be in control in the other 286 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,160 half. That's not really surrender at all. In the chapter called Harnessing Our Potential, 287 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:49,360 you point to an interesting dilemma that elevates our calling over brokenness. And you quote 288 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:56,840 Vance Havner. This is the quote, we are trying to get young people to volunteer and say, 289 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:03,200 here am I, before they have ever said, woe is me. So I want to ask the question, why 290 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:10,280 does our calling, here am I, flow most powerfully from our brokenness, woe is me? 291 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:18,120 Well, I think whatever causes or form of brokenness a person experiences that they are going to 292 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,400 be I've mentioned it before, they're going to be weaned from pride and self sufficiency. 293 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:30,900 I'm very alarmed even on local levels, the pride I see in ministry, even with people 294 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:36,080 who never write and so forth, and they have a limited platform. And God says in Isaiah, 295 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:44,680 I think it's 42, eight, I will not share my glory with another. And I have to weep. Because, 296 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,120 I mean, there's fingerprints of my humanity and pride on about everything I do. But I 297 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,880 say, Lord, my motives are mixed, but I'm here, use me. So by being broken in the way I have 298 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,840 by him not taking away this source of pain, it leaves me dependent upon him. If even if 299 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,680 for no other reason, I pray, Lord, help me get through the day, Lord, help me to teach 300 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:13,120 my class today with effectiveness, no matter why I feel beforehand, I am forced in a sense 301 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:19,700 to be radically dependent on strength that's not mine naturally. So I think that's one 302 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:25,360 big benefit of the brokenness. And it also I'm not talking about sin being the cause 303 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:31,880 of depression, but I also it's it's brokenness to realize my potential to sin. And I know 304 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,640 where my thoughts go sometimes. I mean, John Owen, who John Piper calls the greatest devotional 305 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,560 writer, and some of his mega books on sin and temptation that have been edited down for 306 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:49,000 modern readers. But he warned his congregation over 300 years ago about what he called the 307 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,800 indwelling sin of believers. Yes, you have the Holy Spirit within he emphasized Romans 308 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,800 eight. But he said, you've got to recognize that there's warfare going on and your heart 309 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:05,320 and mind are battlegrounds, even if you are the Lord's. So he said, we take our own potential 310 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,880 to sin too lightly. And remind you, I think if I don't still see Terry Powell's potential 311 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,760 to harm the Lord's name, and to break up my marriage or whatnot, even in my 70s, then 312 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:26,040 I think there's a word for a person like that. And it's called victim. Because I'm scared. 313 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,320 I'm scared of my sin potential. And every day I have to confess before the Lord and 314 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,520 in tears and, and say, Lord, purify me or Lord, keep me strong. I am forced to rely 315 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:42,560 now sometimes broken experience can make a person bitter. But I say, Lord, break my heart. 316 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,040 And there's one sense in which the only thing that improves by breaking it is the human 317 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:56,760 heart. If it if that leads me to tenderness toward other people, that leads me to trust 318 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:03,160 the Lord Paul when he went through great pressure and persecution in Asia, and he was not a 319 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,480 melancholy temperament. He was pretty cleric. But Paul says, as you know, in Second Corinthians 320 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,520 one, he talks about I have comfort you with what I've been comforted from by God, I've 321 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,560 suffered, and I give you the comfort I received in my suffering. Then he says in verses eight 322 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:24,640 and nine, the second 20 and one, we had this experience in Asia, this difficulty, we despaired 323 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:30,080 even of life. So whatever he went through also affected his attitude in his mind and 324 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,240 his heart. But he said, we learned to trust not in yourselves, but in God who can raise 325 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:42,560 the dead. That was the effect of his pain. But it's a good thing. 326 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:48,280 You know, when you think about the context of Paul saying those things, as he was talking 327 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,240 about the things that they went through that perhaps others were even saying was a sign 328 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:59,560 of weakness and a negative sense that they were on the attack against him. And they had 329 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,440 the things that they were boasting in with their credentials, that it's in that context 330 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:12,560 that Paul teaches us how to boast in our weaknesses. And yeah, I love both Corinthians letters, 331 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:18,320 but second Corinthians, I think, especially speaks to this brokenness that we're discussing 332 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:24,840 right now. You write quite a bit about a influential pastor or professor, I should say named Buck 333 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:30,720 Hatch in your chapter, which is also about brokenness, I think part two, called Wanted 334 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,560 Wounded Soldiers. And certainly we could see the Apostle Paul in a similar light. But there 335 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:42,600 were stories that were shared by his son that demonstrated how God changed people's lives 336 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:48,360 through Buck's brokenness. They were powerful stories. Certainly, people will get the book 337 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,060 and read these chapters, they'll be touched by them. But here's the quote that stuck out 338 00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:58,240 to me. This is from his son, Nathan. He says, Buck Hatch's life demonstrated that the divine 339 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:05,920 economy inverts natural priorities. In Christ's kingdom, the last shall be first. A life is 340 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:13,640 saved by losing it. And weakness confounds strength. And that is just one of those wow 341 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:19,680 quotes to me. And because it just says so much. And I particularly was grappling with 342 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:26,160 that latter part and weakness confounds strength. So focusing on that last phrase, weakness 343 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:31,880 confounds strength, how do the struggles of chronic conditions, and we'll say whether 344 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,760 they're physical or mental or both, how do they show the truth of that statement, weakness 345 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:37,760 confounds strength? 346 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:45,120 By the way, Nathan, when he wrote that, Buck Hatch's son was history professor as an evangelical 347 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,720 Protestant at Notre Dame. And he later became president of Wake Forest University. He's 348 00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:56,240 retired now in North Carolina. But Buck was not only, he was still counseling students 349 00:34:56,240 --> 00:35:01,480 when he was no longer teaching all the way into the 90s. He died in the late 90s. But 350 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,440 for his 80th birthday, Nathan published that and surprised him with it in Christianity 351 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:13,040 Today, called the Blessing of Brokenness. And his dad, Philip Yancey, I think I quote 352 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,240 him in that chapter, Yancey was a student and he said some bad things to say about some 353 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:24,100 of the legalism and hardness of our environment back when he was here. It's not that way 354 00:35:24,100 --> 00:35:30,920 now to that extent. But he said, Buck Hatch untangled some of my negative views of God. 355 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:38,480 So he had a big influence on Philip Yancey as well. But he was shy. He almost never ate 356 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,360 with anybody in the cafeteria. He would meet one to one with people and counsel up to 10 357 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,720 hours a week and never charge because he had a background in psychology. But he came from 358 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:53,880 a broken home, a well to do home financially, but heard his parents argue and would sit 359 00:35:53,880 --> 00:36:00,040 outside the door and shake his head as a boy and feel great grief over it. But he's had 360 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:06,640 depression much of his life. But yet, if you ask, I am not exaggerating this. If you asked 361 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:13,480 anybody who's still alive from the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s into the 80s, what professor impacted 362 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:19,360 them most and it was James Buck Hatch. Buck was his nickname. And the lives have changed. 363 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:25,640 He's dynamic in the class, but like I'm not saying I'm comparing myself to him, but he 364 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,560 was not really relational outside of class except for one on one dealing with hurting 365 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:36,880 people. But he was a great example of great usefulness of somebody who had great pain. 366 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:42,120 Even growing up with his kids, he would sometimes come to the dinner table, all six people, 367 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:48,440 six kids and his wife and never say a word for 30 to 45 minutes because he was so depressed. 368 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,760 But he kept on, he kept serving the Lord. He didn't talk about it much publicly like 369 00:36:52,760 --> 00:37:02,760 me, but he still had a significant ministry. So it's again, example, here's the issue. 370 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:10,440 In Psalm 50, I think it's 15, the Lord says, call on me in the day of trouble. I shall 371 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:16,440 rescue you and you will honor me. Obviously, he doesn't keep us from all trouble, but he 372 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:24,880 will do something. There's a direct link grammatically between the idea of calling on God, his work 373 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,900 on our behalf, and then him being honored. And Charles Spurgeon's analysis of that verse 374 00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:35,840 from many years ago, of course, was that the giver gets the glory. God gets more glory 375 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,080 when I'm weak and needy, not when I'm strong and have it all together, because I'm forced 376 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,560 to call on him for help, get me through this day, whatever. And then when others who know 377 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:53,240 me and they're around me, they know if I am able to keep serving or keep speaking or teaching 378 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:58,520 and writing and living, they shake their heads and look at me and say, well, I know Powell, 379 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,360 that can't be him, it must be God. So God gets more glory. Spurgeon said it this way 380 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:13,800 in his analysis. He said, God gets from us most glory when we get from him most grace. 381 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,560 Have that quote in Serve Strong Too in another chapter. But you know, so when I'm needy and 382 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,520 need a lot of grace to get through the day, that's when God gets glory, as long as I go 383 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,800 and give him that neediness and let him use me. That way he gets more glory. I tell my 384 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:33,440 students I became increasingly transparent in my last decade or two of teaching about 385 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:38,760 my struggles. But I said, it's okay if you see Terry Powell is weak. I know some of you 386 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:46,280 do because you're right. I am. But as long as you see my Savior that I lean on is strong. 387 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:53,040 That's the key. When you see his strength, keeping me up, keeping me alive, keeping me 388 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,040 useful. That's the key. 389 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:02,920 Well, I was very touched by both of those chapters. I believe in the book, if remember 390 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:09,560 correctly, chapters 11 and 12. But in any case, it certainly gave me an appetite for 391 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,280 the rest of what you have to say in that book. And also, I just as an aside, you know, about 392 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:22,320 Philip Yancey, you know, I think Philip Yancey has impacted probably maybe millions of people, 393 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,200 you know, through his writings. And as far as popular authors go, I feel like he's one 394 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:35,080 of the most humble, grounded, you know, and gives you something of, you know, depth. And 395 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,960 you could tell it just, it comes from somebody who is deeply rooted in the Lord. So it was 396 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:46,840 exciting for me to see that connection to what was I'm sorry, Buck Hatch. Yeah, you 397 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:53,000 said Buck was his nickname. But it was exciting to think that here's someone maybe who didn't 398 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,680 even think a lot of himself that ends up influencing somebody that has gone on to impact millions 399 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:04,480 of people and impact them in the right way. That's the thing about Philip Yancey. Like 400 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:11,240 you can tell it's not out of, you know, any kind of any kind of pride, or, you know, wanting 401 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:15,400 to be someone that we now call influencers or anything like that. He's just faithfully 402 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,480 serving the Lord. And it happens to be that he's he's a pretty good writer as he does 403 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:25,240 that. And so that allows him to reach a lot of people. So that was a neat connection. 404 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:29,080 And I look forward to reading the rest of that book. I know that's not your most recent 405 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:36,320 book. Your most recent book, if I understand correctly, is Can You See the Cross From There? 406 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:41,000 Grace and Grit for Suffers and Sinners. And so I wanted to ask a little bit about that 407 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,200 book. And also, if you just want to elaborate, I think we've touched on some of the resources 408 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,340 available throughout our conversation. But if there's anything else you'd like to add 409 00:40:49,340 --> 00:40:53,040 in terms of resources, and maybe talk a little bit about your new book. 410 00:40:53,040 --> 00:41:00,760 Yeah. Well, the new book is unique. It started out as a devotional book. The chapters, because 411 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,520 of the development of content, became longer than a typical devotional. But I wrote 31 412 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,720 chapters, and everything from a chapter on listening well, a chapter on our speech and 413 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:17,640 conversations and biblical guidelines for them. There's two chapters on the value of 414 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:23,040 Christian friendship and fellowship to sustain us through hard times. There's several chapters 415 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:30,080 on God Lament Prayers, where I pray to God for purifying and changing my heart. I deal 416 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:36,040 with issues of personal revival and corporate revival. And when do you know if it comes? 417 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:41,520 I have a chapter on the sovereignty of God and suffering based upon a poem I wrote to 418 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:46,720 a couple on a church who lost their 23 year old son on a mission trip when he was going 419 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:51,720 on climbing a mountain to be up high to be with God and have potions. He was a medical 420 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:56,640 student almost finished and was going to go overseas on missions and so forth for part 421 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:01,320 of his year every year. And my wife taught him piano for 10 years. So I wrote a poem 422 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,900 for memorial service, which I preached and gave it to his parents. But that's in there. 423 00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:13,540 But then I go into several people's experiences on how that mysterious but special doctrine 424 00:42:13,540 --> 00:42:19,680 of God's sovereignty is actually something that can comfort, won't take all pain away, 425 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,960 but it sustains and comforts people when they're depressed or when they're hurting in many 426 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:32,960 ways. So there's also several chapters on the concept of preaching to yourself. Paul 427 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:39,000 Tripp has written and talked on this. John Piper many years ago has. But for years I've 428 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:46,000 been teaching this practice as key to my own spiritual journey because I preach to myself 429 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,240 God's word. I remind myself of promises when I'm hurting. It doesn't necessarily end a 430 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:57,120 depression episode or a frustration, but it sustains me. It keeps me going. I will pray. 431 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:02,440 I may not feel God's presence for a long time, but I literally remind myself of promises. 432 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:08,240 Matthew 28 20 part of the Great Commission, Isaiah 41 10, do not fear for I am with you. 433 00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:15,720 I don't multiply memorize verses like that just for my teaching. It's for my life. So 434 00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:20,400 it's not like I throw a verse at something and I clippantly think it's going to go or 435 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,920 the problems goes away. No, it gives me a redemptive look at it. It helps me to how 436 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:31,440 I pray about it. It sustains me. So I'm unapologetically whether I'm tempted, I'll take promises on 437 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:37,320 temptation like second, that's long industry. Three, the Lord is faithful who will protect 438 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:43,320 and strengthen you against the evil one. I quote promises to myself on a variety of issues, 439 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:50,160 not just despondency, to help give me hope and sustenance to keep going. And it certainly 440 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,960 does that for me. So I have several chapters where I illustrate how to do that against 441 00:43:53,960 --> 00:44:00,560 different type of foes, not only despondency, discouragement and ministry, but also temptation. 442 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:09,480 So but a lot of it's focused on how do I appropriate the gospel? Am I really delighting in God's 443 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,520 forgiveness or do I still punish myself for things I've dealt with and yet I still feel 444 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,840 guilty over false guilt? So that's why I named it What I Did. There's a strong emphasis. 445 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:27,360 Am I taking the benefits of Jesus death seriously? Could I take just a moment to read a short 446 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:33,880 poem that entered it? Sure. No, that would be great. 31 chapters start with a faith poem. 447 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:39,240 It's not just a poem about anything. And some I wrote decades ago and some I wrote two or 448 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:46,200 three years ago. This one I wrote in 1989 when I was first beginning to get help with 449 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:53,080 depression. My wife thought I was suicidal. I probably was. And she called two people. 450 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,760 My current pastor was only there a couple of years and an older student I'd had in class 451 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:04,600 who was pastoring a different church locally after he graduated. Well, my pastor took me 452 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:09,480 out to breakfast and tried to encourage me to get medical intervention because I just 453 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,320 thought it was a faith issue. And when I did for the first couple of years, I had some 454 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,920 great help through the medication. It later waned in effectiveness. And then the other 455 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,680 gentleman, the young pastor, knocked on my door at night. I was reading the newspaper 456 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:31,320 and my kids were school age. But he comes in around seven o'clock after dinner and I 457 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:36,280 didn't know my wife had called him. And he said, I've heard you've had a rough day. I 458 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:41,800 said, yes. And he knew I was depression prone and he was too. He said, I just want you to 459 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:47,520 know I'm by your side until nine o'clock, two hours. You can read to your kids. You 460 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:53,200 can study for next day's class. You can read the newspaper. You can watch TV. But I'm not 461 00:45:53,200 --> 00:46:01,280 leaving your side for two hours. Just know that. I wrote this poem to those two men. 462 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,960 One of the means of grace, whether the problem is discouragement about ministry or depression 463 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,360 or other struggles, obviously God likes to use the body of Christ in our lives, a good 464 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,960 friend. I've learned though that a friend can help me, for example, in my despondency 465 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:23,480 unless I'm willing to look weak and be transparent and open about it. As Galatians 6.2 says, 466 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,920 bear one another's burdens. So I need to tap into that means of grace and yet I have to 467 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:34,960 share my burdens. And so that's something we're not always willing to do. One man who 468 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:42,320 came by my side to sit with me for two hours on a very depressed day, back around 1089, 469 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:48,160 he was a local pastor, but not my pastor, but I knew him well. And when he came to sit 470 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:55,440 with me for two hours, I later wrote this poem. I titled it incarnation. The load is 471 00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:03,600 heavy. My body is bent. My spirit too is weak and spent. Darkness hovers so the sun is high. 472 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:10,720 Too tired to pray. Too numb to cry. I'm feeling hopeless on a downward slide. Then you knock 473 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:18,240 and come alongside. Encouraging words, a listening ear. I'm reassured that Christ is near. When 474 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:24,040 pain turns a heart to stone, no one should have to go it alone. In time and space through 475 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:31,620 thick and thin, God wraps his love in human skin. I went on to give other illustrations 476 00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:36,440 in biblical teaching on the importance of one another's bearing each other's burdens 477 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:42,240 and the need to be transparent about it. And I have other chapters on that. So every chapter 478 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:49,040 of this book, can you see the cross from there, starts with a faith poem on a vital topic. 479 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,320 And then I have anywhere from one to four pages of biblical teaching. And then I will 480 00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:01,200 have a prayer and then a scripture quote other than what I may use in the copy of the article 481 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:07,640 chapter. And then I'll have a quote on another author on that topic. So that's my latest, 482 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:12,480 I think it's the most significant in one sense. And it's available at Amazon. 483 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:20,000 Okay. Well, thank you. And we'll link that as well. And, you know, I think that's very 484 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:26,840 powerful, of course, and part of what can minister to us most in our brokenness, I think, 485 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,960 is recognizing what God has done in the incarnation. And it's, of course, what makes Christianity 486 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:39,800 unique. But then we inhabit that or we continue that ministry of incarnation with one another. 487 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:45,440 And it sounds like your friend was able to do that. And so I appreciate you sharing that. 488 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:51,640 I wanted to also go back to one other thing here in closing. You mentioned, you know, 489 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:56,120 preaching to yourself. And it's a little subtle distinction there. I think that's different 490 00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:01,320 than preaching at yourself. And where I'm kind of going through the idea of reminding 491 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,840 myself of God's promises and assurances, I was actually working on something earlier 492 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,920 today where I was talking about the inner critic and how our inner critic is always 493 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:17,440 accusing us of things and how that's more akin to the voice of Satan than it is the 494 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:23,680 voice of God. But I think as we take that inner critic out of our lives, especially 495 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:30,040 when it's accusatory, what a great thing to bring back into to fill that void with the 496 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:36,840 promises of God and how that preaching to ourselves builds us up and reminds us of truth 497 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:43,240 and reminds us of God's love for us and how He will never abandon us. Thank you so much. 498 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:50,120 Because preaching to myself, is it because I and or Satan say negative things to myself 499 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:56,720 that are not right. God doesn't care for God's not with me, or you cannot overcome this temptation, 500 00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:01,560 or you just messed up with your grandson again when we had an argument. And I will, I will 501 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:06,680 get upset at myself. But the preaching is to comfort and to give truth to replace that 502 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:13,120 negativism. It is giving a biblically based rebuttal to false beliefs and negative thinking 503 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,240 that isn't biblical. So I'm very qualified. 504 00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:21,120 Well, it's just I happen to be writing my Bulletin article for my church about that 505 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:27,940 today. And so it was just fresh in my mind. And, you know, if I think I think it just 506 00:50:27,940 --> 00:50:34,280 compliments so well what I was thinking about earlier, because some of us grew up in traditions 507 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:42,360 and circumstances where a very negative view of God was constantly reinforced in a God 508 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:47,640 that was always negatively assessing us. So you can imagine combining it out then that 509 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:54,440 theology with a bad, you know, with the battle of depression and where you already have a 510 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:59,640 lot of negative self taught going on. And you combine that with a reinforcing bad theology, 511 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,080 just how harmful it could be. So how much more important than is it going to be for 512 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,240 us to be able to preach to ourselves the truths and the love of God? 513 00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:14,160 Yeah, we're preaching grace to ourselves and the different things that God promises to 514 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:19,640 dispel and refute the lies that we tell ourselves and that Satan whispers. 515 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:27,960 Amen. Well, Terry, thank you so much for being with us today. You know, certainly excited 516 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:33,440 for our listeners to get an opportunity to hear this conversation that we got to we got 517 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:40,000 to have and we'll link all the that stuff in the all those resources in our show notes. 518 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,600 And then I will also include your email if they want to get that list of resources that 519 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,920 you said you would make available to them. So thank you so much. And of course, I encourage 520 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:54,880 you to go to brokenamended.org and see some of the resources that we have there for chronic 521 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,180 pain and chronic illness and support groups that we have as well as some the blog post 522 00:51:59,180 --> 00:52:04,600 and podcast, which, of course, you found our podcast if you happen to be listening to this. 523 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:11,960 But you'll also notice that we do talk about mental health and anxiety and depression and 524 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:17,240 the need to be transparent about this and to speak up. And Terry, I appreciate, too, 525 00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:23,360 you kind of alluded to it, you know, the importance of speaking up, I think, as a man, because 526 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:28,400 a lot of times men think that they can't, they shouldn't speak up about their weaknesses. 527 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:33,680 We're taught not to do that. And so I appreciate your humility. I appreciate your transparency. 528 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:39,320 And it is obvious to me that God is using that to great effect through your life into 529 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:45,800 the lives of others. And I believe that in that he is receiving glory. So thank you very 530 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:59,400 much for being with us, Terry.