1 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:36,560 Well, welcome back everyone. 2 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,240 I am your host, Wayne Pearson, and you are listening to episode nine of season three 3 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,720 of the Poggle podcast. 4 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,380 Boy, do we have an important conversation for you in this episode. 5 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:51,360 As Poggle practitioners, we have probably all been faced with talking about Poggle to 6 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,780 folks who don't really know much about Poggle. 7 00:00:54,780 --> 00:00:59,120 Some of those people might be our colleagues who are interested in Poggle and might want 8 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,160 to bring this pedagogy into their classrooms. 9 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,280 So you have an opportunity for outreach. 10 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,560 Another common scenario is that your teaching is being evaluated and you need to educate 11 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:15,100 your departmental or institutional administration about what you are doing in your classroom. 12 00:01:15,100 --> 00:01:20,360 We have a great team of people to talk about talking about Poggle. 13 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:25,460 Sheila Barback is currently a member of the science faculty at Golda Ock Academy in West 14 00:01:25,460 --> 00:01:27,100 Orange, New Jersey. 15 00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:32,520 She previously taught fifth to eighth grade science at Gerard Berman Day School in Oakland, 16 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,580 New Jersey, where she also served as general studies principal. 17 00:01:36,580 --> 00:01:40,720 She has taught high school science in grades nine through 11 in New Jersey and biology 18 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:47,360 at the community college level at County College of Morris in Randolph, New Jersey. 19 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,860 Kristi Martis is a faculty member and chair of the Department of Chemistry, Physics and 20 00:01:51,860 --> 00:01:58,340 Engineering Studies at Chicago State University in all places, Chicago, Illinois. 21 00:01:58,340 --> 00:02:04,000 Our interviewer is Alex Gushow, who is a faculty member at Reiter University in Lawrenceville, 22 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,780 New Jersey and chair of the Department of Earth and Chemical Sciences. 23 00:02:08,780 --> 00:02:13,640 So we have three people who have multiple perspectives on the importance of talking 24 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:15,020 about Poggle. 25 00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:19,320 So I'm just going to step on back and turn it over to Alex. 26 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,220 Thanks Wayne. 27 00:02:21,220 --> 00:02:25,240 So first I want to have you each introduce yourselves. 28 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,880 I know Wayne gave us a nice little introduction of where you're at. 29 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:38,440 But I also want you to tell us a little bit about those experiences and how you got, you 30 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:47,820 know, what is your institutional culture when it comes to sort of perhaps using non-traditional 31 00:02:47,820 --> 00:02:48,820 teaching methods. 32 00:02:48,820 --> 00:02:51,580 So Kristi, I'm going to start with you. 33 00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:52,580 Yeah. 34 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:58,020 So I am currently in the first year of being the chair of chemistry and physics. 35 00:02:58,020 --> 00:03:03,220 I was an interim chair for a year during COVID, but now I'm chairing my own right. 36 00:03:03,220 --> 00:03:10,820 But I've been at CSU for almost 20 years and I've taught primarily chemistry, a few physical 37 00:03:10,820 --> 00:03:17,060 science classes, but chemistry, coming out of physical chemistry and general chemistry. 38 00:03:17,060 --> 00:03:22,740 And I think I've been very lucky that Chicago State in my department has a pretty extensive 39 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:31,820 history of interest in active learning and teaching different pedagogies. 40 00:03:31,820 --> 00:03:38,400 We have an actual chemistry educator, Andre Van Duser on staff. 41 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,080 We have a physics educator, Mel Sibela, who is past president of the American Association 42 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:45,580 of Physics Teachers. 43 00:03:45,580 --> 00:03:52,200 We have quite a bit of freedom in our department to teach and try out new teaching methods. 44 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,060 And we write our own DACs, the department of, you know, basically the document that 45 00:03:57,060 --> 00:03:58,900 says whether you get tenure or not. 46 00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:02,620 And so even before I started there, we pretty much written in, you know, they were at the 47 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:11,380 point where they were transitioning from being more lecture-based to more guided inquiry-based 48 00:04:11,380 --> 00:04:12,900 when I started there. 49 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:15,020 And we've just kind of kind of slid that in. 50 00:04:15,020 --> 00:04:20,300 It's not actually specifically required that you do active learning, but it's certainly 51 00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:26,620 not any kind of barrier to tenure, the way we do the evaluations. 52 00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:27,620 Right. 53 00:04:27,620 --> 00:04:28,620 Yeah. 54 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:32,740 And you mentioned something that's very important and actually I've been very fortunate at 55 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:40,940 Rider University in that the department sort of generates most of the decision-making when 56 00:04:40,940 --> 00:04:43,700 it comes to your teaching. 57 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:51,220 And that is you have some evaluation going on from outside the department, but primarily 58 00:04:51,220 --> 00:04:55,020 the department is the one that sets the criteria. 59 00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:57,740 And that is very helpful. 60 00:04:57,740 --> 00:04:59,740 Not everybody gets that luxury. 61 00:04:59,740 --> 00:05:04,340 Sheila, you want to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your experiences? 62 00:05:04,340 --> 00:05:05,340 Sure. 63 00:05:05,340 --> 00:05:06,340 So, hi. 64 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:12,460 So I was actually introduced to Poggle when I taught at County College of Morris by my 65 00:05:12,460 --> 00:05:19,700 chairperson, so that was great because it really came as a suggestion from the department. 66 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:24,660 I was the only person using the method in my department, but there was no barrier to 67 00:05:24,660 --> 00:05:27,660 trying it out or anything like that. 68 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:32,980 And then when I left County College of Morris, it was to actually go to a school that wanted 69 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:38,380 to implement inquiry-based learning in specialized programming for the middle school students. 70 00:05:38,380 --> 00:05:39,980 So it was also already there. 71 00:05:39,980 --> 00:05:45,900 I just kind of kept following it and finding opportunities to teach that way. 72 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:52,820 And in my current position, I actually interviewed, I wrote about using Poggle method and inquiry 73 00:05:52,820 --> 00:06:00,940 learning in my teaching practice and my demo lesson was a Poggle lesson. 74 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:07,900 And we have built into the middle schoolers weekly schedule our inquiry lab classes where 75 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:13,900 the teachers, we have a rotation of teachers that design a two-month long inquiry-based 76 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:15,980 project in any subject. 77 00:06:15,980 --> 00:06:23,500 So I designed one, the social studies collaborated, there was a Spanish one, but my point is that 78 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:28,020 there was, the inquiry is very much woven into the curriculum here. 79 00:06:28,020 --> 00:06:37,180 So it's always been, I don't want to say expected, but at least from the minimum of being open 80 00:06:37,180 --> 00:06:41,460 to it, like, okay, to we actively encouraging inquiry-based learning. 81 00:06:41,460 --> 00:06:42,460 Right. 82 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:43,460 Yeah. 83 00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:49,700 So it sounds like both of you have found yourself in very fertile ground for adopting Poggle 84 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:53,580 or any kinds of active methods. 85 00:06:53,580 --> 00:07:03,660 I will say that I did not land in fertile ground and it's been a challenge here to get colleagues 86 00:07:03,660 --> 00:07:04,660 on board. 87 00:07:04,660 --> 00:07:12,140 I've been here quite a while, longer than Christie, and I'm not going to say how long, 88 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:17,540 but when I got here, there was no idea of what active learning was. 89 00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:26,900 And I still have colleagues who, I don't want to say actively oppose, but they resist that 90 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:29,380 in the department. 91 00:07:29,380 --> 00:07:35,860 And so, I'm going to throw this out to each of you. 92 00:07:35,860 --> 00:07:41,360 I don't want to talk about the idea of how do you win people over, but what do you do 93 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:48,300 when there is sort of a reticence to adopt something? 94 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:54,020 Let's say you're hiring somebody, Christie, and they want to be a traditional lecturer. 95 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:57,020 What do you do? 96 00:07:57,020 --> 00:08:02,940 I will say that the people we have hired recently, because we're on the state of Illinois, it's 97 00:08:02,940 --> 00:08:10,260 kind of been a hiring freeze, have been all part-time, I imagine, lecturers, right? 98 00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:16,580 And Andre and I just, because partly because we were hiring them into GenCamp, which is 99 00:08:16,580 --> 00:08:21,540 the class that Andre and I have taught for a number of years, we have said, hey, we've 100 00:08:21,540 --> 00:08:26,020 got these materials and let me show you how we do it. 101 00:08:26,020 --> 00:08:32,460 And it wasn't really an option. 102 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:35,460 And it's worked very well. 103 00:08:35,460 --> 00:08:38,500 Andre is good about being gentle. 104 00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:42,820 And not that the chair has a lot of power, but with an adjunct, you get a little bit 105 00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:46,140 more power of, hey, this is what we need you to do. 106 00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:48,820 I think it helps that we give them the materials. 107 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:54,420 So I'm not telling somebody, hey, I know you're getting paid the very low amount that adjuncts 108 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:57,380 get paid and I want you to reinvent your teaching. 109 00:08:57,380 --> 00:09:01,180 It's here are all the Poggle activities that we do in GenCamp. 110 00:09:01,180 --> 00:09:03,600 Here's the schedule. 111 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,380 And we also have, we have learning assistance, which is a program. 112 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:14,860 And so, you know, we tend to offer some of our more, and that's a general approach. 113 00:09:14,860 --> 00:09:18,580 You know, people who are less excited about Poggling, it's like, but we're going to give 114 00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:20,260 you a learning assistant. 115 00:09:20,260 --> 00:09:25,340 And the learning assistant students who all have been kind of coached in the joys of active 116 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:26,340 learning. 117 00:09:26,340 --> 00:09:31,620 So they'll be kind of nudging their faculty mentor and say, well, hey, we could try this 118 00:09:31,620 --> 00:09:34,700 and it would work well with the students and hey, the students would like this. 119 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:38,180 And that's the other thing is if the students have done active learning activities in GenCamp 120 00:09:38,180 --> 00:09:43,900 and in the first physics classes, they tend to kind of hope that that keeps going. 121 00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:49,580 So they'll themselves do a little bit of advocating for that. 122 00:09:49,580 --> 00:09:52,020 So it tends to propagate that way. 123 00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:59,300 Sheila, what have you, what have you observed with colleagues coming in, you know, and sort 124 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:07,500 of trying to convince them or sort of help them along the way to providing active learning 125 00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:09,500 in their classrooms? 126 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:16,220 So in my, in my previous school, I had first like a half administrative half teacher role, 127 00:10:16,220 --> 00:10:19,620 and then I was principal for a period of time. 128 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:25,940 And we really, there was, I don't know, it was like a slow but steady approach. 129 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:29,580 I don't know how else to describe it. 130 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:35,460 Because most of our staff had been there before I was and had a particular outlook on teaching. 131 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:42,380 It was definitely like, find the first teacher who was willing to try this like crazy thing, 132 00:10:42,380 --> 00:10:43,380 right? 133 00:10:43,380 --> 00:10:48,460 And reflect on where they thought they could bring more active learning into their classroom. 134 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:53,780 And I do think that at the age level that I, of my school, it was a kindergarten through 135 00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:56,700 eighth grade program. 136 00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:01,940 It's already very active learning, but it was, it really started with conversations 137 00:11:01,940 --> 00:11:06,540 about switching it from, which was, I think, a language that the teachers were a little 138 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:13,100 more like comfortable with, teacher centered versus student centered. 139 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:16,620 So that's kind of where it started as a student centered classroom. 140 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:23,580 And how can you guide students to try something more independently or bring in a little bit 141 00:11:23,580 --> 00:11:24,580 more independence? 142 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:28,580 And then there were some teachers who were just kind of moving along the continuum, right? 143 00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:34,260 That may be like, okay, I'll let the students handle the math manipulatives themselves, 144 00:11:34,260 --> 00:11:35,260 right? 145 00:11:35,260 --> 00:11:38,860 Like the cubes and they'll put them together themselves, you know? 146 00:11:38,860 --> 00:11:43,540 And then there was another first grade teacher who said, I want to do a genius hour. 147 00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:46,660 So with first graders, I mean, she was really outside the box. 148 00:11:46,660 --> 00:11:53,420 So it's sort of like we do with our students was figuring out which, where each teacher 149 00:11:53,420 --> 00:11:57,900 was in the continuum of his or her teaching practice and then taking them sort of step 150 00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:00,260 by step to, okay, what's the next thing I can try? 151 00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:06,660 It was very incremental, but that's, to me, that's the only way that you're going to change 152 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:10,180 someone's teaching practice is going to change. 153 00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:14,900 When we have the opportunity to hire new staff, then that was part of the interview process, 154 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:15,900 right? 155 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,860 Then it was like, okay, what is your outlook on active learning? 156 00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:20,140 What does it look like in your classroom? 157 00:12:20,140 --> 00:12:21,420 What experience do you have with it? 158 00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:24,260 So we can have that conversation. 159 00:12:24,260 --> 00:12:29,460 Colleague to colleague, a little different. 160 00:12:29,460 --> 00:12:33,980 It's more, at least in the school where I am, the culture is such that we observe each 161 00:12:33,980 --> 00:12:37,780 other as part of our reflection for the year. 162 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:43,740 So I've had teachers come to my classroom to observe inquiry-based lessons or POGO lessons 163 00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:47,140 and then kind of talk about it a little bit. 164 00:12:47,140 --> 00:12:56,180 And then kind of see who your allies are or who else is swimming in that same pool and 165 00:12:56,180 --> 00:13:00,020 then share the things that have been successful about that teaching method. 166 00:13:00,020 --> 00:13:03,300 So I guess I'm a very grassroots kind of approach, right? 167 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:07,980 And even when I was in an administrative position, it wasn't like something that the job hinged 168 00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:13,460 on, but it was, let's see where you're going to grow as a teacher. 169 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:18,300 And this is a vision that I have for our curriculum and let's see where you fit into it. 170 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:24,220 So trying to be inclusive, but also give like that little, but you can do it. 171 00:13:24,220 --> 00:13:25,220 Yeah. 172 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:32,780 And I think that the key there is nudging them along, providing, as Christy said, if 173 00:13:32,780 --> 00:13:39,580 you provide materials to like particularly adjuncts, and those of us in higher education, 174 00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:46,980 we're often, well, I guess we're increasingly reliant upon adjuncts now. 175 00:13:46,980 --> 00:13:52,460 And many of them come in with very little teaching background. 176 00:13:52,460 --> 00:13:58,700 They may have like, particularly in the sciences, they may have come from an industrial exposure 177 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:05,380 or they may be sort of have bounced around various teaching gigs and they may have not 178 00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:10,260 necessarily sort of been exposed to active learning techniques. 179 00:14:10,260 --> 00:14:17,740 And so really what it is is just offering up, because they're not sure what they want 180 00:14:17,740 --> 00:14:19,940 to do. 181 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:27,140 You try to give them as much support to do active learning as possible without necessarily 182 00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:34,100 pushing them, because if you push, I've found it doesn't really go over if you push too 183 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:35,900 hard. 184 00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:48,100 It's funny because I have some supportive colleagues here who really like what I do in the classroom 185 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:55,920 because it makes the students that they get after me that much better, but they are unwilling 186 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:04,860 to really jump in because it's just something that it's not their style. 187 00:15:04,860 --> 00:15:11,460 And I think that that's something that needs to be honored is that some people, it's not 188 00:15:11,460 --> 00:15:12,460 their style. 189 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:18,180 They can be very effective lecturers and they can be very engaging. 190 00:15:18,180 --> 00:15:21,860 In some ways, that does bring students along. 191 00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:28,580 I just wish that they would do more, but there's very little I seem to be able to do to move 192 00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:29,900 the needle on what they're doing. 193 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:35,100 Do you have any thoughts on how to help people out in that position? 194 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:40,860 I'm looking for help here. 195 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:50,860 I think that for teachers to make a significant change in their teaching practice, it either 196 00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:52,940 comes out of a pain point. 197 00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:56,220 Like, okay, I just can't do this anymore. 198 00:15:56,220 --> 00:16:00,140 And I remember when I went to my chairperson, and I was a very young faculty person at that 199 00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:06,740 point, it was like the end of my second year, but I said, I can't imagine trying to be funny 200 00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:11,900 for the next 20 years in a lecture to try to keep students engaged. 201 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:17,260 And then how much do I have to bend over backwards and this and that. 202 00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:18,980 So for me, that was a pain point. 203 00:16:18,980 --> 00:16:21,780 I was just like kind of, I needed something different. 204 00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:30,860 And I also just knew myself as a learner, I didn't, I really had a hard time in classes 205 00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:36,460 where it was just the professor speaking and then I had to memorize what the professor 206 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:42,260 was saying and then repeat at least 80% of it when I took a test at whatever point, right, 207 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:43,380 at whatever assessment point. 208 00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:48,300 So I think the pain point struggle is one, which I think is also a way to access the 209 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:55,140 teacher's reflection and say like, well, how do you feel in terms of, you know, asking 210 00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:59,780 like kind of probing questions and helping them reflect on what feels right about their 211 00:16:59,780 --> 00:17:01,300 practice and what doesn't. 212 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:05,900 And then I think the other is really just the example, like really inviting, being very, 213 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:09,820 very transparent with your teaching, always teaching with the door open. 214 00:17:09,820 --> 00:17:14,900 Like in my case, I never closed my door, there's students all around, there's teachers all 215 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,900 around and I talk really loud. 216 00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:22,460 And then really just being vocal about, not on purpose, it's just how I talk, but, and 217 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:30,660 just inviting people in and saying, you know, why don't you just come see. 218 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:35,020 And one of the things that I've always wanted to try and have just never gotten off the 219 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:39,820 ground around, you know, it was one of those things that you learn in graduate school, 220 00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:44,000 like, oh, there are schools that have instructional rounds and teachers travel from room to room 221 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,700 and watch each other, you know, engaged in teaching and then you debrief it later and 222 00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:49,700 discuss it. 223 00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:56,780 And I think that releases a lot of the fear of trying something because you see somebody 224 00:17:56,780 --> 00:17:59,500 else doing it and it just opens up reflection. 225 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:02,140 So I guess those are the two ways I look at it. 226 00:18:02,140 --> 00:18:06,100 One is if you have the opportunity to have the conversation in like a low stakes way 227 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:10,340 and help the reflection component think about what's working in their practice and then 228 00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:16,980 what is it and then also being very open to sharing the way that you teach and allowing 229 00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:25,580 people to see you kind of do the inquiry or active teaching or whatever it is. 230 00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:33,180 Yeah, I think there's still the fear I hear most often is, well, you know, since students 231 00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:36,740 are going to graduate and they're going to go to medical school, they're going to go 232 00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:41,780 to pharmacy school for us or graduate school and we've done them a disservice because we've 233 00:18:41,780 --> 00:18:50,420 never taught them how to survive in the lecture only environment. 234 00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:53,420 And I think that's a real fear, especially at a school like ours where we have small 235 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:54,580 classes to begin with. 236 00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:55,980 We don't have giant lecture halls. 237 00:18:55,980 --> 00:19:02,700 The students aren't having that experience. 238 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:07,060 And so I think that's a concern. 239 00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:12,100 I think the counter to that is, A, if they never learn enough, they're not going to get 240 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:14,060 up there anyway. 241 00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:17,180 But also, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing. 242 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:23,740 You don't have to commit to doing nothing but active learning every day. 243 00:19:23,740 --> 00:19:27,500 Maybe there's one topic that you know, we all know this, right? 244 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:31,780 You give the test and you know from year to year that no one is going to get this particular 245 00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:32,780 question right. 246 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:36,140 You know, other than the people who happen to know it before they started out in the 247 00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:37,140 class. 248 00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:41,140 You know, that's the one thing that maybe figure out what could I try? 249 00:19:41,140 --> 00:19:43,820 Try a more active learning approach to that. 250 00:19:43,820 --> 00:19:48,940 Or you know, something you just talk about, you know, that it is a journey. 251 00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:53,060 I did a number of years of clicker questions and just in time learning sorts of questions 252 00:19:53,060 --> 00:20:01,580 before I started Poggle and I still sometimes for there's a few topics in GenCAM that get 253 00:20:01,580 --> 00:20:06,660 the clicker questions because whatever I've been trying with Poggle isn't working that 254 00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:13,020 year and so we're going to briefly default to clicker questions and see how that goes. 255 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:20,020 So I think it's okay to tell people you're not putting all of your chips in one basket 256 00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:21,020 when you do this. 257 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:22,020 Right. 258 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:23,020 Yeah, absolutely. 259 00:20:23,020 --> 00:20:28,660 I mean, there are some people, you know, we know in the project who, you know, this is, 260 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:36,020 you know, Poggle is all they do for their classes all the time and that works for them. 261 00:20:36,020 --> 00:20:43,180 And, you know, I think that, you know, the notion of trying to bring colleagues along, 262 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:46,140 letting them recognize that it's not an all or nothing thing. 263 00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:51,860 I would say that, you know, you know, every couple of classes, I'm going to spend about 264 00:20:51,860 --> 00:20:58,860 half of the class time, you know, just talking through some points rather than allowing the 265 00:20:58,860 --> 00:21:04,420 students to struggle with it because either they're tired of the struggle sometimes and, 266 00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:07,340 you know, you need to support them. 267 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:10,740 So I think that, you know, all of these, you know, just have, I think one of the things 268 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:18,780 that's a really good message for people who are curious about active learning but afraid 269 00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:26,700 of it is that I think one of the things that has, it has allowed me is to better understand 270 00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:31,740 what students are doing in the moment in the classroom because, you know, you're engaging 271 00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:33,380 with them the whole time. 272 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:38,660 I mean, even if they're off in their teams doing something and you're purposefully standing 273 00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:40,340 back, you're still engaged. 274 00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:44,020 You're still paying attention to what they're doing, which is not something that happens 275 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:49,500 in a sort of a more traditional environment. 276 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:55,420 So I think that one of the things that we haven't really touched on a little bit is 277 00:21:55,420 --> 00:22:00,980 how do we talk about, you know, the people who are higher up in the pay grade than we 278 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:01,980 the Poggle practitioners? 279 00:22:01,980 --> 00:22:09,980 I mean, so we've each had some administrative experience and we know that that administrative 280 00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:19,020 experience means more responsibility, not necessarily any more authority. 281 00:22:19,020 --> 00:22:28,260 So how do you pursue talking with administrators above you with this? 282 00:22:28,260 --> 00:22:32,580 I mean, we've all been fortunate enough to be, you know, the three of us have been fortunate 283 00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:39,540 enough to be in places where we're given enough latitude and our departments have allowed 284 00:22:39,540 --> 00:22:40,580 us to move forward. 285 00:22:40,580 --> 00:22:45,740 But how do we how do we sort of bring that forward to like the new administrator who 286 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:50,260 just, you know, the dean who just got hired or the principal who just got hired and who 287 00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:53,300 has no idea what you're doing? 288 00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:57,180 Anybody want to join jump in here? 289 00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:05,620 Well, I think it helps that even, you know, I sometimes use the word Poggle when I'm describing 290 00:23:05,620 --> 00:23:10,140 things to hire people, even if I know what the faculty member isn't doing isn't quite 291 00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:14,900 Poggle, it's guided inquiry in general or it's, you know, heuristic writing or something, 292 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:17,020 you know, related to that in lab. 293 00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:22,940 So it's not to confuse things because it does help that Poggle is a national organization 294 00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:24,420 with a web page. 295 00:23:24,420 --> 00:23:29,300 And I can say we're doing what these people are doing, you know, and it links up well, 296 00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:35,540 you know, you know, I highlight the interconnectedness between the learning assistant alliance and 297 00:23:35,540 --> 00:23:40,260 Poggle and how those complement each other. 298 00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:45,740 And it helps that we've got a few small grants because money talks to universities. 299 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:50,300 And so, you know, even that very small grant that Andre and I got from Poggle to write 300 00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:55,420 a couple of polymer labs, we can say, look, we got a little bit of money to do this in 301 00:23:55,420 --> 00:23:56,420 the classroom. 302 00:23:56,420 --> 00:23:58,420 And they're like, oh, overhead. 303 00:23:58,420 --> 00:23:59,420 Yay. 304 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:09,500 So I don't think that it's, at least again, in my standpoint, we haven't had a lot of, 305 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:12,700 oh, we want to see a lecture or anything like that. 306 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:18,940 They've been relatively comfortable with us doing our thing. 307 00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:23,380 And again, it helps we've had a department with a lot of success with our teaching from 308 00:24:23,380 --> 00:24:26,100 different fronts, Poggle and not Poggle. 309 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:34,460 But I think we've got enough built in credibility that even if there's an occasional, because 310 00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:37,660 that's what faculty worry about, right, is that they're going to have one bad semester 311 00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:43,340 of teaching evaluations and that's going to sink their job. 312 00:24:43,340 --> 00:24:48,100 But that's again, just an argument for, well, don't try to do all Poggle all the time from 313 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:50,020 the first day of class. 314 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:55,740 If you're just starting out, do, like you said, one a week or one every other week. 315 00:24:55,740 --> 00:24:59,700 And that's not likely to do anything to your teaching evaluations. 316 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,700 Right. 317 00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:13,180 I think for, I guess I'll speak from the perspective of now a classroom teacher without an administrative 318 00:25:13,180 --> 00:25:14,180 role. 319 00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:19,740 And again, I, when I applied for this job, it was already, I use Poggle and inquiry based 320 00:25:19,740 --> 00:25:21,620 learning and I have a very active classroom. 321 00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:27,420 But I think for teachers who are feeling like, how do I talk about this with my administrator? 322 00:25:27,420 --> 00:25:32,940 I do think that secondary teachers, I think we have the advantage because at this point 323 00:25:32,940 --> 00:25:36,900 there's the expectation that you're not a frontal teacher, right, that you're not just 324 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:38,180 standing in front of the room. 325 00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:46,260 And I think we also know at this age range and where we are kind of post remote learning 326 00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:49,660 and all of that, the students do really want to be active in the classroom. 327 00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:55,500 So I think it's a little bit lower hanging fruit for the age range that I'm working with. 328 00:25:55,500 --> 00:26:03,380 And I think that in the case of a chairperson, you want to have that rapport with the chairperson 329 00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:07,660 and kind of like those conversations of like, well, this is what I'm thinking about this 330 00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:11,140 and how I'm teaching, like sort of again, that transparency. 331 00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:16,820 I think we, if we feel like we have to hide the way we're teaching or the way we're teaching 332 00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:19,780 won't be accepted and we kind of have to think about like, all right, what's the culture 333 00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:22,900 like in my school and what's going on there? 334 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,740 And we don't all have the privilege of picking up and moving and going to a different school. 335 00:26:26,740 --> 00:26:30,980 So you definitely have to operate in the culture that you're operating in. 336 00:26:30,980 --> 00:26:35,180 So when that happens, I always say like, well, okay, well, find your allies, find the teachers 337 00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:40,700 who you know, your work best friend who teaches like you or thinks like you or aspires like 338 00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:41,700 you. 339 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:45,620 And that way, at least you don't feel like so by yourself. 340 00:26:45,620 --> 00:26:50,700 Which I often felt like there was a time where I had a chairperson who wanted everybody lecturing 341 00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:56,300 and everybody who was teaching the same section of the same class should be on the same topic 342 00:26:56,300 --> 00:27:01,340 in the departmental syllabus on the same day, whether you were teaching one three hour lecture, 343 00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:09,100 two hour and a half or three 45 minutes, which I can see from everybody's face. 344 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:15,940 So you find you know, you find that ally and I think so I do feel optimistic that at least 345 00:27:15,940 --> 00:27:20,420 in the I don't even want to say K to 12, let's say middle school and high school level. 346 00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:26,260 This is where published curricula are heading in the first place inquiry and thinking and 347 00:27:26,260 --> 00:27:32,660 you know, being student centered and having social skills infused into the curriculum 348 00:27:32,660 --> 00:27:34,180 across the curriculum. 349 00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:41,940 So I think it's a great time for this type of for this for us to bring Pogel to this 350 00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:46,140 to K to 12 or five to 12 or whatever, whatever age range. 351 00:27:46,140 --> 00:27:50,020 Yeah, I mean, I agree. 352 00:27:50,020 --> 00:27:56,060 And even your suggestion of finding your allies is really important. 353 00:27:56,060 --> 00:28:02,180 Being open with your administrators is very important. 354 00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:10,060 When I started here again, it was there were a lot of sages on the stage at this institution 355 00:28:10,060 --> 00:28:12,980 and the notion that I would walk. 356 00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:19,580 I mean, you know, it's a small institution, but the idea that during the classroom, I 357 00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:23,620 would walk around and sort of see what students are doing. 358 00:28:23,620 --> 00:28:28,640 That was sort of viewed as a little strange to like, why would I leave the chalkboard? 359 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,940 You know, because I mean, how are you going to move to the next transparency? 360 00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:31,940 Oh, wait a minute. 361 00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:35,860 I just dated myself. 362 00:28:35,860 --> 00:28:42,780 And so, you know, and even today when I am lecturing, I am not up front. 363 00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:44,260 I'm usually sitting in the back. 364 00:28:44,260 --> 00:28:51,860 I love the remote control on my computer because I want to be in amongst the students. 365 00:28:51,860 --> 00:29:01,900 And just that activity alone shows some engagement and allows you, you know, because I noticed 366 00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:07,860 early on that students, when you're up there talking, students will lean over and ask the 367 00:29:07,860 --> 00:29:10,700 person next to them, what did he say? 368 00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:12,180 You know, or try to explain that. 369 00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:17,420 And so I found that if I'm just sitting amongst them or not necessarily sitting, but standing 370 00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:23,620 or leaning on a chair or whatever, they have more comfort in just leaning over and say, 371 00:29:23,620 --> 00:29:26,380 OK, what does that mean up there? 372 00:29:26,380 --> 00:29:33,540 And I mean, just those little things right there sort of promote student engagement. 373 00:29:33,540 --> 00:29:40,780 I think that those little things are helpful. 374 00:29:40,780 --> 00:29:47,300 And you know, I actually sort of learned doing this, learned sort of this habit from a colleague 375 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:50,020 of mine in our education department. 376 00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:55,300 I mean, this is how she did things because she used to be, you know, a high school math 377 00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:56,420 teacher. 378 00:29:56,420 --> 00:30:00,260 And so this is how you do things in high school math teaching. 379 00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:05,980 I'd never had any formal teacher preparation, you know, as a college professor. 380 00:30:05,980 --> 00:30:06,980 We don't get that. 381 00:30:06,980 --> 00:30:12,140 I mean, other than being a TA and back in those days, you know, there was no active 382 00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:13,140 learning. 383 00:30:13,140 --> 00:30:16,180 I was just grading stuff and holding office hours. 384 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:25,020 So I think, you know, getting the education part is important, but finding the people 385 00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:34,300 who you can talk to at your institution is a huge, huge support mechanism to keep you 386 00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:35,300 going. 387 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:45,740 Well, it might be worth checking in with your recruiting staff because at least, I mean, 388 00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:50,900 state schools, right, which are primarily driven by enrollment. 389 00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:57,140 And we know that the number of future college students is declining across the country, 390 00:30:57,140 --> 00:31:04,100 at least in the vast majority of states, that the institutions are sensitive to enrollment. 391 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:11,460 So if you can have somebody or talk to somebody about how this is actually something that 392 00:31:11,460 --> 00:31:17,140 students, for the most part, because they are seeing it in the high schools, they sort 393 00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:19,700 of want, now they might not. 394 00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:24,300 There's where you want to use the word guided, you know, active learning and maybe not, not 395 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:30,460 Poggle because some high school students have had, you know, unfortunate experiences with 396 00:31:30,460 --> 00:31:34,460 Poggle's homework, not as an active learning experience. 397 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:41,820 But you know, I've noticed, I've got a junior in college myself, or sorry, junior in high 398 00:31:41,820 --> 00:31:47,220 school looking at colleges now that the number of the colleges starting to mention, you know, 399 00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:50,780 come here for active, engaged learning, right? 400 00:31:50,780 --> 00:31:51,780 Well, great. 401 00:31:51,780 --> 00:31:53,580 What do you mean by that? 402 00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:59,500 So the incoming students are savvy enough to know that that's something that they might 403 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:04,100 want, or at least it's a differentiator. 404 00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:05,100 And so we should check. 405 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:09,900 And that gives you a little bit of play if you want to, if you need to talk your way 406 00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,260 into trying something, you can say, well, you know, the recruiting people said that 407 00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:16,260 people are asking for this. 408 00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:17,260 Right. 409 00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:18,260 Yeah. 410 00:32:18,260 --> 00:32:19,260 Okay. 411 00:32:19,260 --> 00:32:27,300 So any, any other final thoughts that people have here on, on, on helping, helping our 412 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:36,020 future Poggle colleagues sort of get, you know, increase their use or sort of get more 413 00:32:36,020 --> 00:32:39,260 comfortable doing it at their home institution? 414 00:32:39,260 --> 00:32:49,820 Well, obviously reach out to the Poggle project, see if there's somebody in your area, you 415 00:32:49,820 --> 00:32:55,740 know, like a local Poggle practitioner who's a little further down the path and connect 416 00:32:55,740 --> 00:33:00,860 and, you know, find it always helps to not feel like you're alone. 417 00:33:00,860 --> 00:33:01,860 Right. 418 00:33:01,860 --> 00:33:09,700 Yeah, I was going to say that those, you know, one of, you know, we've been, our adjunct 419 00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:15,500 has paid, or we paid, covered, you know, one of the E series, which isn't necessarily an 420 00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:21,300 obvious introduction, but it's a short introduction on some part of it. 421 00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:27,860 And it's $20, which is generally within the price point for most departments to cover. 422 00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:28,860 Right. 423 00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:36,860 Oh, so, so you actually have been, you have paid for adjuncts to participate in the series. 424 00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:37,860 Okay. 425 00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:43,860 So that's, we can't quite afford a whole three day trip or anything, but we can afford $20 426 00:33:43,860 --> 00:33:44,860 to. 427 00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:45,860 Right. 428 00:33:45,860 --> 00:33:46,860 Right. 429 00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:47,860 Okay. 430 00:33:47,860 --> 00:33:48,860 Yeah. 431 00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:54,380 So I mean, there, that's a, that's a good way to sort of bring people along. 432 00:33:54,380 --> 00:34:01,300 I mean, I will say that I have gotten a few of my colleagues to go, I mean, go to workshops 433 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:08,700 and participate in things just at least so that they think about how to put it into their, 434 00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,700 into their teaching. 435 00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:17,180 And again, you know, you're not going to win over everybody to be going 100% active learning 436 00:34:17,180 --> 00:34:23,600 in their classroom, but you know, anything that we can do to move the needle and help 437 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,500 others to move the needle. 438 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:34,140 So well, Christie, Sheila, I really want to thank you both for an engaging conversation. 439 00:34:34,140 --> 00:34:40,740 You know, it's, it's sort of a tricky spot for people who want to sort of develop more 440 00:34:40,740 --> 00:34:49,980 active learning of figuring out how to do it and, and, and how to make it, you know, 441 00:34:49,980 --> 00:34:57,460 be a comfortable thing for them to do as well as something that, you know, is accepted in 442 00:34:57,460 --> 00:35:02,980 their institution is it's a really important topic, you know, and I hope we have a further 443 00:35:02,980 --> 00:35:05,340 conversation on this. 444 00:35:05,340 --> 00:35:10,180 Yes, Alex, I couldn't agree more. 445 00:35:10,180 --> 00:35:16,820 It's very interesting that as POGLE practitioners, we don't talk as much in the classroom as 446 00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:22,260 some other people might, but we certainly enjoy talking about POGLE and we certainly 447 00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:27,340 enjoy those conversations when we get a chance to tell people what we're really doing in 448 00:35:27,340 --> 00:35:28,880 our classroom. 449 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,660 So again, we invite all our listeners out there to, to talk to us at the podcast. 450 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:40,660 You can do that through hashtag the POGLE podcast on the Facebook page and we will be 451 00:35:40,660 --> 00:35:45,280 having another happy hour coming up here pretty soon. 452 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:51,860 So for everybody at the podcast, we wish you the best of classroom experiences that you 453 00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:53,020 can have. 454 00:35:53,020 --> 00:35:56,660 Keep POGLING on and we'll see you in the next episode. 455 00:35:56,660 --> 00:36:20,340 Goodbye everybody.