1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,560 MUSIC 2 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:39,660 All right, well, welcome back, everybody. Welcome to the first Poggle podcast of 2023. 3 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:45,800 We hope everybody's had a great holiday season. Happy New Year. We're certainly ready to get 4 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:52,000 going. We have Siobhan Julian here today. Siobhan, I think we're going to... 5 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,000 Hello. 6 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,000 Yes, we're going to talk about questions. Is that what we have? 7 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,000 Yes, FAQs. FAQs. 8 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:06,000 FAQs, yeah. Whether you're a brand new Poggle practitioner or you've been practicing for 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:12,000 10 years, I know by the time I retired, I still had questions about Poggle. I think 10 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,700 everybody has questions as they begin and as they go along. So we've got some folks 11 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:21,600 here tonight that are going to provide some guidance and some answers to some of those 12 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:27,600 questions, the most frequently asked questions. And Siobhan, I think I will turn it over to 13 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,280 you and let you introduce everybody. 14 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Thank you so much, Wayne. So it is my pleasure to introduce to you tonight, Suzanne Rooter 15 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:41,000 and Tracy Murray. Suzanne is the professor and associate chair of chemistry at Virginia 16 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:46,960 Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. VCU is a large urban R1 institution with a 17 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:52,960 very diverse student population. But more than that, Suzanne is an absolute stalwart 18 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,880 in the Poggle community. She has been using Poggle for about 18 years in organic chemistry 19 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:06,800 in classes ranging from 150 to 250 students. So Suzanne's got some stories to tell. Suzanne 20 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,920 has served on the Poggle Steering Committee twice. She developed and has facilitated the 21 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:19,000 facilitator training workshop, which by the way, I was a participant in back in 2018 learning 22 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,680 from Suzanne's vast background knowledge. And she's facilitated lots of other Poggle 23 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,040 workshops. She also has NSF funding for the Ellipse project, shout out for the Ellipse 24 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:35,380 project right there, which explores how to elicit and assess process skills in the classroom. 25 00:02:35,380 --> 00:02:40,520 And then we also have with us tonight, Tracy Murray. Tracy is the professor and chair of 26 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:47,480 chemistry and biochemistry at Capital University in Columbus, Ohio. Capital is a smallish private 27 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,400 university that's four miles from downtown Columbus that has students from inner city, 28 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:58,880 inner city, suburban and rural school districts. And Tracy has been using Poggle in lots of 29 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,920 different classes. She's been using it in biochemistry, general chemistry and nursing 30 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:09,480 chemistry. She's been using Poggle for about 15 years in biochem. And I believe she just 31 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:17,460 wrote a book that got published, Poggle Activities for Biochemistry from Kendall Hunt. And she 32 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:21,840 has been using Poggle for about five years in her non biochemistry classes. And she has 33 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:30,800 facilitated lots of Poggle workshops. So given that this particular podcast is a best of 34 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:37,600 or top tips and FAQs discussion, we have these two guests are going to be absolutely the 35 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:43,960 people to answer your questions. Newer practitioners I find typically have a lot of similar questions 36 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,360 about Poggle pedagogy. And as Wayne says, if you've been doing for 10 years, you know, 37 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,720 if you get into your little rut, you know, you've got questions about how to get out 38 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,440 of that do something a little bit different. And I cannot wait to hear what they have to 39 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:02,440 say. So the first most frequently asked question that I'm sure everyone can attest to is, if 40 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,600 you're using Poggle pedagogy, how do you cover all the content? How can you be sure that 41 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,600 the students have learned what they need to learn? And Tracy, I will start with you. 42 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:19,440 Thanks, Siobhan. And thanks for having me on. I'm really happy to be here. So how do 43 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:25,840 I cover all the content is a super tricky issue. So I think it's a really valid question 44 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:30,120 that lots of people have. And I think that there's a lot of different ways to answer 45 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,740 it. And it's going to depend on your situation. So one thing I usually try to tell people 46 00:04:34,740 --> 00:04:40,680 who are starting out is that learning objectives are super, super important. So knowing what 47 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,200 your actual learning outcomes are, your learning objectives are, and what are the most important 48 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,720 things for your students to be able to do on that topic is really, really helpful. And 49 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,480 most of our, you know, high school and middle school practitioners are going to be really 50 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,400 familiar with learning outcomes. And they're going to know exactly what that is. Our college 51 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,720 faculty, maybe not so much really familiar with what what a learning outcome is, but 52 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,920 really maybe doing some backward design and thinking, what do I want them to be able to 53 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,440 do on the exam? And then that's what I need to focus my activity on. The other thing that 54 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,560 I found really useful is that, you know, one of my colleagues is a really very good lecture 55 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:23,760 professor, but he does almost every variation of every problem in class. And so like, I 56 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:29,640 can't do that in a Poggle classroom, I can pick one, maybe two variations of that problem. 57 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:35,080 And so I use homework to kind of cover the rest of those variations, or we have a workshop, 58 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,040 which is kind of like a recitation that the students attend. And so we can add some extra 59 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,480 variations in there. But if you're looking at your lecture notes, and you're like, oh, 60 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,320 I'm actually doing five different variations on a theme, pick one or maybe two, and then 61 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,560 push the others to some other part of your class. 62 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:55,720 Yeah, that's, that's definitely a good little little tip there. Suzanne, how about you? 63 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,680 Hi, and thanks for the introduction. And I'm also happy to be here. I think when I first 64 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,760 started, I looked at my lecture notes that I had used before. And I kind of thought, 65 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,680 you know, maybe some of this I don't need to talk, I don't need to talk about like stuff 66 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:14,280 that they just needed terminology or things they just needed to learn. I don't like to 67 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:19,920 say that the M word in class, but there is certain language that they do just need to 68 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,360 know. Yeah, I don't have to tell them about it, right? It's like, okay, here, here, just 69 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,440 this, look at this chart or this table in the book, and I'll give you a quiz on it. 70 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,560 And I don't need to spend time figuring having them figure it out in class, because it's 71 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,760 not really, it doesn't really take any critical thinking or any kinds of skills like that. 72 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:43,600 So I just take those things and do them outside of class, and maybe have homework dedicated 73 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,300 to those topics. And then really spend time in class on things that you really want them 74 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:53,740 to learn, things that you want them to discover, and, and that will really help them learn 75 00:06:53,740 --> 00:07:00,160 other things, things that are connected. So frequent quizzes also is one way to think 76 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,820 about how, how do you know what they've learned, you know, so I give a short clicker quiz every 77 00:07:06,820 --> 00:07:11,200 class period to see, you know, just to assess where they are and do did they learn what, 78 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,800 you know, I expected them to learn. Yeah, definitely. Like, I know, for me, it's I always 79 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,740 want to have like some sort of warm up the next day, did you get out of the POGO what 80 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:24,800 I needed you to, but I like your comment there, Tracy about learning objectives, because that's 81 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,360 funny as a high school teacher myself, it's like, yeah, these are everywhere, you know, 82 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,320 this is a daily thing with us. And so for us, it then becomes like a bit of a one to 83 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:39,040 one, oh, replacing this lesson on this day that hits this learning objective with a POGO 84 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:47,200 that covers the exact same learning objective. It's funny to think of college professors. 85 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,120 I did not know what a learning objective was until I started like interacting with the 86 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,480 POGO project. So that's where I learned about what it was and how to write one and why they 87 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:01,720 were important. Interesting, interesting. Um, thank you so much for those answers. So 88 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,100 another frequently asked question, and definitely because I've run the virtual fundamentals 89 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:13,000 workshop a number of times. And this is something that comes up. Do I have to POGO every day? 90 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:19,840 slash? How often do you POGO? So this sort of concern about timing and frequency of using 91 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:26,400 POGO activities. And, uh, Suzanne, what's your answer to that? 92 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,680 I think that this really varies on your comfort level. Um, you know, how much time do you 93 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,820 have to teach? You know, if you're a high school teacher and you teach them every day 94 00:08:35,820 --> 00:08:40,680 or like I have class just twice a week, you know, so I have a longer period. So really, 95 00:08:40,680 --> 00:08:48,280 it really is an individual, um, decision. So I have a POGO activity every day, but you 96 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,800 know, it's really up to you. I think that what is really important is that you're consistent 97 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,560 and you don't want to have, you know, oh, well, I might do one, you know, every once 98 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:01,600 in a while. So the students think like, well, why are we doing this then? So I think if 99 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:08,640 you go into the semester and you say, we're going to have a POGO every Friday or every 100 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,280 other week or whatever you decide, just make it really consistent so that they, they know 101 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:18,760 they can expect it. It's not like a surprise so that they are ready to do it when you decide 102 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,040 that that's when you're going to have it. So, you know, I just reiterate that I think 103 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:28,000 it's important to use the activities to make sure that they spend time on that material. 104 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,120 That's really important. Um, you know, and so you may be, maybe the first time when you 105 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,920 start out, you don't do, you do it every two weeks or something. So you might want to pick 106 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,360 topics that you know that they're going to have trouble with so that then you can give 107 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:46,080 them feedback while they're learning it. Um, and then spend the other time lecturing that 108 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:54,120 you don't do an activity. Yeah. Um, Tracy, how often do I use POGO? Yeah. So I POGO every 109 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,240 day and all of my classes. Um, but, but I think it's really important. Um, when I was 110 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:07,600 new to POGO, um, there were no published activities in biochemistry yet. Um, and so I did not, 111 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:13,360 I, I did not have POGO every day when I started because I had to write my own stuff. Um, and 112 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:20,920 so it took me about five years to transition from all lecture to all POGO. Um, so I think 113 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:26,080 when I jumped in and started using it in my other classes, which was a more recent thing, 114 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,480 there were published materials and I was a pretty experienced facilitator at that point. 115 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,960 So I just grabbed the materials that already existed and we just jumped in and did it every 116 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,760 day. But I think if you are getting new to it or getting used to it, or you don't have 117 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:43,680 materials available that you can pull into your class, I think, um, like Suzanne said, 118 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,360 consistency is good. Um, I wasn't super great about that because I was writing the activities. 119 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,800 So I wrote the ones that seemed to fit first. So sometimes we went two weeks doing POGO 120 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,480 and then all of a sudden I lectured for a week, um, because I didn't know what to do 121 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:02,120 with those. And so I haven't written an activity yet. Um, but I think that's important. Um, 122 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:07,640 I do encourage people though, to try to move toward as much POGO as you can. I think the 123 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,760 consistency and the routine as the students get used to working in teams and working every 124 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,920 day in teams, they get better at it. And so if you're only doing it, you know, every other 125 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,760 week, they're never going to really get comfortable with their teammates and they're never really 126 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,200 going to get comfortable with the idea of learning in a POGO environment and constructing 127 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,720 their own learning. So I think the more often you can do it, the better it'll be. Um, but 128 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,560 I get it if that's not possible in your first implementation. 129 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:35,280 Yeah, thank you. Uh, and I'll, for all the high school teachers and middle school teachers 130 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:41,200 out there, um, now this is my opinion, so bear that with, you know, a grain of salt, 131 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:46,760 but um, I think my students would carry out a revolt if I tried to POGO five days a week, 132 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:53,680 uh, teenagers, 14, 15 year olds. Oh, new, new, new, new, new. Um, for me, I think it's, 133 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:57,440 you know, once a week, once or twice a week. Um, because I think, especially with high 134 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,440 school students, variety is key. You got to kind of change it up what you're doing. That 135 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:07,440 way they're not just, they come in, roll their eyes and, uh, you know, and say, Oh my God, 136 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:13,080 we're polling again. Plus just for them, because I do, you know, they're in school for, you 137 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,840 know, seven hours a day. It's a lot of brain, it takes a lot of brain capacity to do a POGO 138 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,960 activity on their end. Um, and so sometimes they just get mentally a little tired and 139 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:28,480 they just kind of want to have a worksheet day. And I'm like, okay, sure. Um, my, my 140 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,600 favorite, um, comment that came on an anonymous evaluation is, can't you just lecture my brain 141 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,840 needs a day off? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. POGO is, is harder on their brain so I can 142 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,960 get that. Um, but, but to, sorry, Suzanne, go ahead. I just, I was just going to jump 143 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,920 in and say that I think that if you do POGO and then you, then you lecture the student 144 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,480 and like to explain it, the students think that, Oh, you're, you just lecture so good 145 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,600 all the time because they just struggled with the concept. And now it makes perfect sense 146 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,440 when I've explained it. Yeah. And then they're like, you always get the comment, you should 147 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,360 lecture more because you're really good at it. I was like, no, no, no. It was only good 148 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,920 because I made you struggle with it first. So yeah, because you had like already figured 149 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,800 it out. You had already done that. You maybe didn't realize it, but you've already gotten 150 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:19,840 to that point. Yeah. Um, and also just to reiterate with both Tracy and Suzanne said, 151 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,240 uh, uh, consistency is key so that POGO isn't something special or unique. It's something 152 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,120 that they're used to. There's some sort of routine that they, that your students can 153 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,680 do. Um, you know, if you're getting started, like once a unit, once every other week, something 154 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:39,680 like that. Uh, and then another big question, which is like, we could probably have an entire 155 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:46,120 podcast around this question is how do you increase student buy-in with POGO? And this 156 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,040 includes things like, how do you introduce POGO? Um, what do you tell your kids about 157 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,200 POGO? How do you talk to them about POGO? What if you have pushback? So there's a lot 158 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,680 to kind of bite into this question. How do you increase student buy-in? Um, so Tracy, 159 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:07,840 what are your thoughts on that? So, um, it's a pretty major emphasis, this idea of buy-in 160 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:14,640 in my POGO classes. So I start with, I actually do the first day of class as a syllabus POGO 161 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,920 activity. Well, it's not really POGO. It's a syllabus activity. Um, there's no learning 162 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:25,560 cycles happening. Um, but it's, um, presented as the most boring way I could start this 163 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,560 class is to talk to you about the syllabus for 40 minutes. So instead we're going to 164 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,560 do this activity. So I kind of try to just even set it up as this is something that's 165 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,920 going to be more engaging and more entertaining than me talking at you. Um, and then in the 166 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,560 syllabus, there are content learning outcomes and process learning outcomes. So, and they 167 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,040 have to, that's one of the questions. And so they get this kind of idea that the class 168 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,800 is going to be about more than just content. And so, and then I keep emphasizing that idea 169 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,480 that this, I want you to learn chemistry, but I also need you to learn how to work in 170 00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,640 teams and I need you to learn how to solve problems on your own. And, um, and so then 171 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:07,280 the second day of all of my classes, I show them data, um, just two pieces of data. Um, 172 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:13,680 one is kind of from that original J chem ed, Mugen Farrell and somebody else paper. Um, 173 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:20,440 that's just, here's the ABC and then DFW grades, um, in a lecture class and a POGO class. 174 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,000 And so they just go through the data. How many people got A's? What percentage of people 175 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,400 got DFW's? And Tracy, just briefly for, for our listeners, could you just summarize what 176 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:35,720 the data says just broadly? Oh yeah. So the DFW is much lower in the POGO class compared 177 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,920 to, um, the lecture class. And, and when they did that, that was the same instructors, um, 178 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,040 that had, you know, four years of lecture data or something, and then four years of 179 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:50,440 POGO data. Um, and so the idea is that the students should, you know, see that fewer 180 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,080 students are doing poorly in the class that's taught using POGO. And then my other piece 181 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:01,320 of data is actually from Suzanne. Um, and so it's, yeah, it's pre-test data, um, in 182 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,160 an organic two class. So looking at how the students who took organic one did when they, 183 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,240 when they actually took a pre-test in organic two, um, and in that data, it's astonishingly 184 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,280 better. Um, the students in the, in the POGO class did way better on that pre-test than 185 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:21,000 the students who had it in lecture. And so then just the last two questions are, why 186 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,600 do you think Dr. Murray teaches using POGO? List two pieces of data. And then why do you 187 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,080 think you should want to learn using POGO? List two pieces of data. And so I kind of 188 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,280 hit it pretty hard right at the beginning of the semester. And I did give up content 189 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,360 days to do that. So that's also tricky, but I think it's really, really important to get 190 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,840 the students to really think about, I'm not just doing this because it's quote unquote 191 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,080 easier for me. It's not easier for me, right? Like I am doing this because it's a better 192 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,440 way to teach you. 193 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:56,520 I'm curious, Tracy, can you speak at all to like how your students have responded when 194 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,600 you didn't do that at the beginning versus how they respond now? 195 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:07,120 Yeah. So that was, that was missing for a lot of years. Um, especially when I started, 196 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:11,760 so biochemistry, right at capital, that is almost all pre-meds. They are really, really 197 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,040 good students. They are really motivated students and it is not really very hard to get them 198 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:21,240 to do pretty much anything. Um, when I jumped in doing it with like our nursing students 199 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,560 and our general chemistry students, I did need to increase buy-in to get them to believe 200 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,280 that they weren't just, oh, we're just teaching ourselves or, oh, this is really stupid or, 201 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:36,560 oh, she just doesn't want to lecture. Um, and so I, I had to add some of that stuff later 202 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,960 on to get them to be more receptive. And at this point, again, I've been doing this a 203 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,520 long time. So at this point, I have some things in the middle of the semester to kind of assess 204 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,140 how you do in it, working in teams, how you do in it, this, and then I actually have now 205 00:17:49,140 --> 00:17:53,600 this, just this fall, I introduced an assignment on the last day of class that's like, here's 206 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,840 a list of characteristics from employers, you know, which ones did we actually work 207 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,240 on this semester? Which ones are you better at, you know, this semester because of this 208 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:06,360 class? And so to just try even like complete the circle of, Hey, this is why we teach using 209 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,280 Pogel. And you think you've seen an improvement with 210 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:15,080 those students who are not in your biochemistry classes. Yeah. Like in terms of, yeah. So 211 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:20,720 I have, um, I mean, next semester there are 37 kids in my Pogel section of GenCam and 212 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:26,120 there's only 22 in the lecture section. So the students seem to really like the idea 213 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:30,760 of Pogel at my institution. Good. All right, Suzanne. So how do you increase 214 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:36,080 buy-in to Pogel? Well, I think it's interesting that, that 215 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:42,520 Tracy used my data in her class and I actually don't show that data. So, I mean, you know, 216 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:49,280 I think that the data, the data is very, very encouraging that the students in the second 217 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,080 semester that was starting the first day, I gave this quiz for many years. Um, and the 218 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:59,200 students that came out of the Pogel section did, did much better. Um, the issue I have 219 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:06,600 with showing that is that, that my colleagues are in the lecture section that taught the 220 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:12,480 students. And I don't, people will kind of take it, you know, personally that I'm maybe 221 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:18,480 saying that what they're doing isn't as good. So I haven't shown that mostly for that reason. 222 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,000 Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. That makes sense. 223 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:28,200 Um, I did, I have given, there's a pyramid, um, that talks about like, um, where learning 224 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,800 takes place. And I've shown that the first day of class, um, and it has, you know, I 225 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,000 have them discuss it for like two minutes and, and it has like lectures at the very 226 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,640 tippy top that you have like 1% of learning takes place in lecture or something really 227 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,760 small. And then at the bottom is like, you know, talking about it with other people and 228 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,800 you know, work, you know, just the things that all the things that we do in Pogel. And 229 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,140 so that, um, you know, and then I had a little bit of discussion about, you know, what did 230 00:19:56,140 --> 00:20:00,720 you learn from this and, you know, trying to get them on board with the idea of this 231 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:06,160 is why we're doing it. Um, I also talk about, I give them an example about swimming. I actually 232 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,400 put this in the syllabus. I said, you know, okay, if I'm trying to teach you to swim and 233 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,680 I lectured to you for three weeks and then the test was to jump in the water and swim, 234 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,200 you wouldn't do very good, right? So we're, you know, you need to practice and not do 235 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,400 so well while everybody's here, you know, help to help you out while I'm here and I 236 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,960 have undergraduate learning assistance that helped me too. So, and then throughout the 237 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,120 semester I'll bring in the process skills, um, and, and talk about, you know, you're 238 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,560 going to need this in a job and, you know, we'll talk about why it's important kind of 239 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:41,680 just throughout the semester. I put things like that in, not just on the first day. Sure. 240 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:49,020 Uh, along with this question, um, and something that especially high school, middle school 241 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:54,660 teachers will deal with is, uh, because we have very, uh, heterogeneous populations. 242 00:20:54,660 --> 00:20:59,080 What about when you get like a confrontational student or someone who is just really not 243 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:05,960 receptive to, um, to buy in or gives you some pushback about, uh, working in the group? 244 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,960 How do you respond to that when your students are like, even after you've introduced it 245 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:16,560 and they're like, no, um, Suzanne, any thoughts on that? 246 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,760 I think that, you know, as an instructor, you have to be consistent and strong about 247 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,640 this is why I'm doing it. You know, I'm doing it because this will help you. Like you may 248 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,360 not feel like it. Um, you know, in class, I would try to encourage them, you know, to 249 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:34,080 get their opinion, but they're, if they're sort of sitting there and, you know, giving 250 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,000 you a nasty face or something, I would ask them to come talk to me, you know, after class 251 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:46,640 or in my student hours and just explain, you know, what, why am I doing it and, um, what 252 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,800 they could do to improve. Sometimes they, maybe they're not comfortable with their team. 253 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:56,040 Um, and then I would ask, you know, is it, is there something that's not working where 254 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,880 you don't feel comfortable talking to people and what, what can we do to help you out to, 255 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:08,080 you know, so I keep teams the same all year because I also, because I have a large class. 256 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:14,680 So, so I don't switch them because it would take too much logistical challenge to do that. 257 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:21,320 So, so, um, but, but if, if there's an issue, then, you know, I'll ask them, do you want 258 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:27,880 to change teams? And maybe, you know, sometimes that helps. Um, one of my colleagues had a 259 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,640 group of students in P chem and they were, they were, they didn't think they needed the 260 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,240 class and they were very antagonistic because she ended up just putting them together. So 261 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,600 she put the four like grumps in the same group. And then, and she said, you know, at least 262 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:47,560 they didn't, you know, antagonize anybody else. They were all unhappy. So they all just 263 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:55,200 rolled their way through their eyes through the activity. Um, Tracy push back from students. 264 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:01,920 What are your thoughts? What are your experiences? So I actually called it localizing the poison. 265 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,840 I had four students that, that were just poisonous. Like no matter what team I put them in, they 266 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:12,200 just made that team not functional. And, um, I eventually put them all together and at 267 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,640 least like they didn't learn much, but at least they weren't disrupting the whole rest 268 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,040 of the class because they all just sat there and complained about how much they didn't 269 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:26,840 want to do it instead of doing anything. Um, so if you have enough, that's definitely one 270 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,240 option and they don't respond. Usually when I have antagonistic students, I just keep 271 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,640 on them kind of like Suzanne said, like, well, look, this is how it is. And, um, this is 272 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,640 how it's going to be. And this is why I'm doing it for you. Um, I will sometimes be 273 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,400 like, you know, Kevin Ahern gives really good biochem lectures. So, you know, they're on 274 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:52,520 the internet. Go find his lectures and watch those. If you think that'll help. Um, usually 275 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,400 I can bring them around just by engaging them and continuing to talk to them. Yeah. But 276 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,440 I think as a college professor, we don't, our students don't have to come to class, 277 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,000 right? Like I don't, I got a lot of fewer issues that I'm parents calling me than, than 278 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,160 maybe a high school or, or middle school teacher might have. So I don't know how great my strategies 279 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,400 would be for, for that population. 280 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:20,520 I will say for me, um, I do introduce Poggle with a focus on the process skills. They take 281 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:27,920 a content day and focus on process skills and teach them also how, how do we Poggle? 282 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:34,920 You know, what are the roles and, um, looking towards what's the benefit of that. And, uh, 283 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,920 it does sort of end with them looking at the list of top skills that employers are looking 284 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,720 for. And I make the point that, you know, even if you're just applying for a job in 285 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,460 McDonald's, they'll want to know that you're able to work as part of a team. They'll want 286 00:24:49,460 --> 00:24:55,520 to know that you're able to manage your time. Um, and even if you don't remember the chemistry, 287 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,760 you're going to learn these skills and you can put that on your resume. You are, you 288 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,840 are learning something that you can sell yourself with. Um, I will also add that I, when I was 289 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:11,140 flying out to PNM in 2019 on my flight to Chicago, I was seated next to a woman who 290 00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:20,360 I realized was the owner of a very large chain of car dealerships in this area, like huge, 291 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:24,160 like all over local ads. So obviously very successful business person. And I was talking 292 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:30,160 to her about Poggle because of course I was. And she then told me, I talk about students 293 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,820 working as part of a team and learning to work as part of a team. And she said to me, 294 00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:39,220 she says, that's so great. She said, I have had people on my team at my dealerships who 295 00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:45,260 are good, who were good salespeople, but they couldn't work with others. So I fired them. 296 00:25:45,260 --> 00:25:50,540 And I was like, you just gave me the best arsenal of all. You gave me the best thing 297 00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:55,000 to say, because then I can say to my students, I'm like, this is not just Mrs. Julian talking. 298 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:00,520 Like this is actual business people talking. And I think that that helps a lot. Uh, the 299 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:06,520 weird year of COVID, I did not do my introductory, like, why do we Poggle thing? And man, I think 300 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,880 it made a difference. Like it really made a difference. They were not nearly as bought 301 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:17,400 in. Um, so yes. So to those listening out there, do something at the beginning of the 302 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,280 year to talk about why you're using this technique, because we really do think it makes a difference 303 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,120 with how students will work in your room. 304 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:29,320 I think it's also important to sort of keep reinforcing that throughout the semester or 305 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,520 the year, the class year, just because, you know, sometimes they forget and absolutely 306 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,920 it's like just lecture. It's so much easier. 307 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:43,920 Yeah. Is it either right after or right before the first test? I also put up the data, which 308 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,320 I can't remember exactly what paper it was from, but it was, it was, I believe from the 309 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,280 proceedings of the national Academy of sciences, a PNAS paper where they talked about students 310 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,760 think they learn more in lecture classes, but they actually learn more in active classes. 311 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,860 And so usually I give it a few weeks, you know, for them to start getting grumpy and 312 00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:03,600 feeling like they aren't learning anything. And then I throw that up there and say, it's 313 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,560 totally normal for you to feel this way, but we're going to keep doing it because look, 314 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,360 you'll learn more. You'll do better on the test. 315 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:14,920 So I agree with Suzanne, you know, keep kind of emphasizing, reminding. 316 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:22,720 Yeah, definitely. The next big frequently asked question is about timing in terms of 317 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,020 how can you ensure that everyone finishes a Poggle activity in the time that you want? 318 00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:31,040 What happens if a team falls behind? What happens if you don't wind up getting through 319 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,160 the activity in class? So timing is always a really big question. And Suzanne, we'll 320 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,160 start with you. 321 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:44,400 Yeah, I use timing slides during an activity. Like I do have a large class, so I have a 322 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:51,280 slide that has like a timer on it. So usually I'll give them eight to 10 minutes for a particular 323 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:57,780 model. And then at the end of each model, I'll ask a clicker question to gauge their understanding. 324 00:27:57,780 --> 00:28:04,680 So that's kind of how I report out in a large class. Some teams might get stuck on a concept 325 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:11,300 and they'll just usually it's something kind of minor, they'll get stuck on it. And so 326 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:16,280 I or one of my learning assistants will tell them, you know, you guys, you guys got to 327 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,120 move on here because you're getting behind. If they're consistently behind, I usually 328 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:26,840 tell them to maybe look over the activity before class, you know, and maybe work through 329 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,600 the first model just to get so that you don't get so behind that you aren't aren't able 330 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:38,120 to keep up. So that's if an individual team is behind. You know, sometimes we get stuck 331 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:45,120 on a point and we don't finish it. And I not going to stress about that. So, you know, 332 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,880 what I'll do then is, you know, some teams maybe get through it, but then I'll do in 333 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,680 my sort of opening for the next class, I'll go over that. So just spend a few mini lecture 334 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,680 on it. It's like, OK, you know, this we didn't and not everybody got to this. So this is 335 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,520 kind of, you know, what you were supposed to get out of it. And it's really not been 336 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,800 an issue with students. If it's if we don't get through like a lot of it, then I would 337 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,360 pick up and continue the activity the next time during the next class. So, you know, 338 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,800 if it's like two or three models, that if it's a really long activity, I may just put 339 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:23,040 it in half. So I like that idea a lot of almost if a team is consistently not working as quickly 340 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,440 giving them the activity in advance, so giving them a chance to read through things. Yeah, 341 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:36,880 I think that for for some people, they get they read slower or they spend a lot of time 342 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:43,120 just looking at the models and they just don't get started in a quick fashion. So having 343 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,880 them look at it ahead of time, I think, was really helpful for them. Yeah. But I do tell 344 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,120 them, don't you know, you still need to talk about it with your teammates, you know, you 345 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,640 don't want to just sit there and wait for the clicker question, you still do want to 346 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,120 talk to your teammates and see what they thought about that particular, you know, whatever 347 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:06,520 the question was on. Yeah. I think I'm going to steal that tip. Thank you, Susan. Tracy 348 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:14,440 timing. What do you think? I'm pretty much very similar things to what Suzanne said. I 349 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:20,120 think that if if they don't finish, it's always a judgment call. So one thing that I try to 350 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,400 set is the expectation is if your team doesn't get done, you have to do it on your own. Right. 351 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,400 Like you have to finish the activity by yourself. We're not taking more time for this. Like 352 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,640 that's kind of the class expectation. And I have heard students say, like, guys, we've 353 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,240 got to finish. Like, I can't do these on my own, or I don't have time to do this tonight. 354 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,560 Like we need to get done, like stay on target. And so sometimes just that expectation that 355 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,600 if we don't finish, you will do this on your own will keep teams moving along because they 356 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,480 want to make sure they get done. That said, I don't always tell them you have to finish 357 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,240 it on your own. So I can sometimes I will say, like, I will just devote the next time 358 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,640 I'm like, everybody finish, but I will give you 10 minutes at the start of the next class 359 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,840 to talk to your teammates and ask any questions that you might have of me or my learning assistants. 360 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,760 Or I will like Suzanne, if it's a lot, I'll just be like, OK, well, whatever for what, 361 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,880 like the stoichiometry this year was a nightmare. I didn't stick from high school. I don't know 362 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,840 if it was a covid thing, but normally the students can fly through that because they 363 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,880 remember it from high school and it's no big deal. And that that took two days this year. 364 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,600 So it's a really important topic. They weren't getting it. We needed to just stop, like stop. 365 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,480 OK, everybody just stop where you are. Don't do any over the next two days or three days 366 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:35,400 until we meet again. And then we'll all come back and keep pick it up again. So I think 367 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,960 it's totally a judgment call as a teacher. The other thing I do think if like if you 368 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:48,960 have a class, I don't teach 250 students. I think it's like 40 max. And so I tend to 369 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,800 wander through the classroom a lot. And so I will stop by teams that appear to be off 370 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,680 track and say like, oh, wow, that's really interesting. But what about number three? 371 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,160 You know, to kind of remind them to get back on track. So I think if you can try to pay 372 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,280 attention to timing as you walk around the room, if you do have a smaller class where 373 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,720 that's possible, I think that you can keep pushing and guiding them toward getting done. 374 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,960 Yeah. And to something Suzanne said as well, if some things I've noticed in my own classes, 375 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,840 even if they're getting stuck on one little point that you kind of need to go over there 376 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:26,760 and be like, who are we perseverating a bit too much on this? And maybe we need to be 377 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:33,320 moving on. And and also the idea of like the mini lecture as a way to make sure that everyone's 378 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,440 on the same page, even if they didn't get to all the questions, you know, is a great 379 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:43,160 way of summarizing and just making sure that nothing, no ball got dropped in the timing 380 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:50,760 portion of it. Another very common question is roles, because we know with good Poggle 381 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,880 pedagogy, our students are not just working in teams, but they are working in teams with 382 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,680 specific roles. So along with roles, we have things like what roles do you use? How do 383 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:07,080 you assign roles? Do the students switch roles, things like that? So Tracy, what are some 384 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,880 of your comments regarding using roles in your classroom? 385 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,240 So first, there was a Poggle podcast episode all about roles. Yes, there was. Well, shout 386 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,520 out to that one right there. So you should listen to that. I was picking up stuff in 387 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:27,080 that podcast on like how to do roles better. So it's a really good one. One thing that 388 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,440 I have done to try to make it so I do assign roles. One of the things I do to make it, 389 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,920 I think it's more fun. I think my students think it's more fun is that my students each 390 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:43,480 get some sort of alternate identity in my classroom. And then I use that to assign roles. 391 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:51,200 So I have done Star Wars. So we have Jedis and rebels and stormtroopers and droids. Right. 392 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,400 I have done Greek gods. And I have done like this particular semester, I did Rick Rordan 393 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,000 books, which he wrote Percy Jackson and the lightning thief and all those parts. So we 394 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,440 had demigods from the Percy Jackson series and we had magicians from the King Chronicles 395 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,680 and we had in Harrier from the Magnus Chase series. And then I ran out of series. So he 396 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,760 has some other books that he helps promote. So we had Pandavas, which are part of the Indian 397 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,080 culture. And so like just trying to mix it up and everybody on a team has one of these 398 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,960 like alternate identities. And then each day I just rotate. So managers, you're the Jedi 399 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,520 today and the public relations, you're going to be stormtroopers. And then I just rotate 400 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:33,200 that. The students kind of fun. The Greek gods was kind of fun because they had to talk 401 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,200 about it. Like, do you like water? Okay, then you're a kid of Poseidon and do you like Lego? 402 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,080 Okay, then you're the kid of Hephaestus. And so we got them to like talk to each other 403 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,200 a little bit about what they liked and didn't like in very non-important ways. So I think 404 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,920 they really like that. And it keeps it so much easier for me because I just have the same 405 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,480 slide and I just, you know, move the roles down every day. And so I know that everybody 406 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,480 in the class has done each of the roles many, many times. 407 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,840 And to that end, I'll follow up as well. Do you feel it's important that every student 408 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,000 gets a chance to be every role? 409 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:13,920 Yes. So I think there are caveats to that. I've had students with like really severe 410 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,080 social anxiety. So like asking them to present to the whole class was just really not something 411 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,760 they could do. So I think you have to be a little careful with it. But I do think that 412 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,480 it is important for each student to get to practice each role. One of the things I actually 413 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,360 picked up from the podcast was the idea of actually giving people a little checklist. 414 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,120 Like I was the manager, did I do these things today? Or I was the, you know, public relations, 415 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,560 did I do these things today? So I think maybe I'll try to start working that in, in some 416 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,440 case, but I do think it's important to really get the full picture, the full experience 417 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,320 of Fogel that you have to do each of the different roles. 418 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,020 And definitely as Tracy said, now after listening to this podcast, you're going to go listen 419 00:35:57,020 --> 00:36:03,560 to the podcast about roles or more in depth discussion there. All right, Suzanne, how 420 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,440 do you use roles in your classroom? 421 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:14,400 So with a large class, the role issue is kind of a large logistical challenge. And I've 422 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:20,240 played around with a few different things over the years. One thing that I used to do, 423 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,780 I haven't done it recently because I don't have physical folders anymore, but I used 424 00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:29,160 to have folders with the team members names on them and each name had a number. And then 425 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,000 I would just rotate through and say, okay, today number one is the manager, two is the 426 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,280 manager, and so on. And then the next day it would just be number two is the manager 427 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,400 and so on. But now I don't actually have physical folders anymore. I would hand out things in 428 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:48,360 the folders, but now it's all electronic. So I frequently will use roles now on my team 429 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:54,000 quizzes. So I have team quizzes before each test. And if you ever want to see students 430 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,520 working really well together, have them do a team quiz because they are, they have one 431 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:06,360 quiz with that they have to turn in together and they really did just work very well. They're 432 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,080 all really concerned about what the answer is going to be because they're getting points 433 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:16,560 for this. And I do use, they have to actually get, someone has to write, so someone has 434 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:22,560 to be the recorder, someone has to be a timekeeper, someone has to make sure everybody agrees 435 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:28,120 those kinds of things. So I usually will put those roles on the quiz itself saying, okay. 436 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:34,760 But because of the large class, I don't, I can't really enforce who's doing what. And 437 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,960 so that I usually let them pick and I'll tell them, if you recorded last time, someone else 438 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:46,200 should do it. But I don't enforce it because it's logistically a challenge. 439 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,680 So no, I like that. Like you said, with the large class, the idea of the team quizzes, 440 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,960 that certainly gets them to practice. 441 00:37:53,960 --> 00:38:00,520 I love the team quizzes. They just, they really, really, it really pushes them to work together. 442 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,960 So yeah. And, but hopefully using all those process skills that they have built up so 443 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:16,600 far. And speaking of that class size, Suzanne, you have very large classes, larger than I 444 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:23,280 can possibly imagine as a high school student, as a high school teacher. So how does Poggle 445 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:28,360 work? This is another big FAQ. How does Poggle work in a large lecture class? 446 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,240 Yeah. I, you know, when I've done workshops before, people always say, well, you know, 447 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:37,320 you can do that with your small class, but I could never do it in my large class. And 448 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,940 I'm like, no, you can't. It's going to look different because, you know, I have large 449 00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:48,120 number of students in a fixed seated stadium seat. They're all squished together with those 450 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:55,240 teams, little desks that nothing moves. So, you know, I think really a team of three works 451 00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:59,340 better than a team of four because they, you know, if it's four, it's kind of like two 452 00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:04,580 and two and maybe the two middle ones will talk. But I tell them, you know, pick teams 453 00:39:04,580 --> 00:39:08,920 of three or four. I won't let them do five because it's just, it's going to be three 454 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,240 and two, right? So, so I didn't really think three works best, but then if you have a student 455 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:21,000 who doesn't come, then you're down to two. So it's a big logistical challenge with a 456 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:27,720 large class, but you know, you, you make it work. I, I have to use under my undergraduate 457 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:32,960 learning assistant. So I generally have a learning assistant for every three to five 458 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,440 groups, depending on how many, how many LA's I can get for the semester. And what I found 459 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:44,120 that really works best is to assign them to the same three to five teams for the whole 460 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:50,040 semester. Because when I didn't do that, the learning assistants would kind of like hang 461 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,680 out and chat with each other until somebody raised their hand. And so now they're placed 462 00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:00,720 around the room and each learning assistant has their section and I give them a sheet, 463 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:06,400 a piece of paper. Sometimes it's a rubric for process skill assessments. And sometimes 464 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,120 it's a, sometimes they do it electronically on their phone, but I give them something 465 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,920 that they have to actually take notes on about the teams that they're interacting with. And 466 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,400 this is really to enforce that, that they have interacted with the teams at least two 467 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:27,400 times, two to three times during each team during the class. And so that checklist, that 468 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,280 little check sheet sort of enforces that. Cause a lot of times they'll be like, they'll 469 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,440 just kind of hang back and like wait until somebody has a question, but that's really 470 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:42,880 not how you facilitate. So, so I think that that's been really helpful. So assigning them 471 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,040 and then they also get to know the students. So they know the students names so that on 472 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:52,360 test day they know who those people are so that they can't send somebody else in to take 473 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,720 their tests. So, you know, I don't know who they all are, but my LA's will because they 474 00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:02,320 have, you know, five, maybe five. So up to maybe max they have 20 students total. So 475 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:08,920 they know who they all are. So that's been, I think the LA's have been really, really 476 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,080 important to a large class. I don't pay them. So a lot of people say, well, we don't have 477 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,400 funding to pay them. I was like, I don't pay them either. They take a class for credit. 478 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,600 Most of my LA's are pre-health majors and they, they want to, they want to share their 479 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:30,960 knowledge. They want to put it on their resume. They're usually very, very consistent and, 480 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,640 and, and, you know, they do a great job. So are you recruiting, are these students that 481 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:41,680 you've already had? Yeah, for the most part, I like to have students that I've had because 482 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,920 they understand the teamwork and they understand, you know, how my class, in fact, all of, all 483 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,200 of my students, except for one year when I, I was on sabbatical the whole year before, 484 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:56,760 I didn't actually have any students that I could pull from. So, so that year was, was 485 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:03,280 hard, was hard to recruit students, but yeah. So I've had, they're all students that I've 486 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:09,120 had. So usually what I do is I, I announced it in the second semester of class for the 487 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:15,040 next year. And then I put an application up on canvas and they, they apply. So, so that 488 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:22,280 the, the LA's have been really, really, really helpful. Another thing, so I do clicker questions 489 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,280 too. Yeah, I was going to ask about that because obviously like reporting out is going to look 490 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,960 vastly different in such a large classroom. So yeah, talk to me about your clicker questions. 491 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:36,080 So at the end, so I give them, depending on how long the model is, I give them five to 492 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,000 10 minutes to work on it. The LA's will go and you sometimes, especially at the beginning, 493 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,240 I'll give them like check in after question three and see what they got or whatever, or 494 00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:51,600 ask them, you know, I give them a few questions for the LA, to the LA's to ask the students. 495 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,680 And then I will have a, we use top hat, but it's, it's like a clicker basically. I will 496 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:04,080 put a question up on this, on the screen and then they will discuss it and answer it. I 497 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,560 give them points for answering it, but not for getting it right because I want them, 498 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,440 I want them to be honest about it. So that then, then I spend maybe two minutes after 499 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,960 that sort of just, you know, going over it. Sometimes I'll ask, you know, okay, who picked 500 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,960 B? Why did you pick that? So I'll just sort of randomly shout out sometimes. Sorry, if 501 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,280 I can jump in there. Is it a question from the POGLE or is it like a sort of an assessment 502 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,760 question? It's usually related to sometimes it's an exact question or sometimes it's like, 503 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,800 this one's really similar to question five or whatever. So sometimes it's exactly the 504 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,560 same, but you know, when they're learning it and I have, you know, teacher of organic 505 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,360 chemistry, so it might have slightly different structure, they think it's totally different. 506 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,360 Right. So, so, you know, sometimes it's like, okay, this is really exactly the same, but 507 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,440 I've, you know, added a methyl group over here or something, but yeah. So it's, it's 508 00:43:53,440 --> 00:44:00,200 usually based on the very, it's not the same. It's very similar. And so then, you know, 509 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:06,880 if the answers are, you know, everybody, everybody is equally distributed, ABCD, then I'm like, 510 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:12,160 okay, let's go back. And sometimes I'll repoll it. I'll say, okay, why, you know, why did 511 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,800 you pick A? Why did you pick B? And then I maybe give them a hint and then we'll, you 512 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,760 know, I'll re-ask the question. That doesn't happen too much. That takes more time, but 513 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:27,760 it's okay. Another thing I've been doing that, that has really, really helpful is I have 514 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:37,240 small, small whiteboards. So, you know, probably eight by 10 size. And each LA has a whiteboard 515 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:42,240 and a marker. And I will have it on my slide and I'll say, okay, the LA's will hand out 516 00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:48,160 a whiteboard to one team member, to one team, and they hand it to a different person in 517 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:53,320 the team so that that team is the recorder, that team member is the recorder. And then 518 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,120 I'll tell them, you need to write your answer to this question on the whiteboard. And then 519 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,280 that gets me to go to get around the whole classroom and I'll look at all the whiteboards. 520 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:07,080 So we'll have eight to 10 whiteboards out there and I'll look at the whiteboard and 521 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:12,080 give them feedback. So that really helps me get to the back of the room, right? Because 522 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,680 my LA's are back there, but I don't always get to the back because I'm trying to orchestrate 523 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:21,040 all the other stuff. So, I really like the whiteboards and it gets every team. So the 524 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:27,040 LA's are keeping track of when do they, who did they hand the whiteboards out to? So I 525 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,720 usually, I don't do it every class, but sometimes I'll do two to three times in a class. Just 526 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:37,600 depends on the content. Like they draw stuff out, right? They draw structures and stuff. 527 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:43,080 So I think that that's been really, really helpful. So I know some people use whiteboards 528 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,880 and the students will hold them up. My class is so big, like I won't be able to see them. 529 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:53,280 But no, that sounds like a variation on it that you were using for your large classes. 530 00:45:53,280 --> 00:46:01,440 Yes. How did you start the Learning Assistant LA program that you use? 531 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,240 You know, actually, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. And when I first started, 532 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:12,160 I was, I started, I brought my own activities, but they weren't very good. But, but they're 533 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,880 better now. But, but when I first started, I think everyone always says that when I started, 534 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,560 my activities weren't good. So yeah. Well, you know, this was like when really when POGO 535 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,960 was first getting started too. So, but at any rate, I had a, I think it was like my 536 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,600 second year, I had an undergrad came up to me and said, I want to, I want to help you. 537 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,120 So I used to use graduate students because we have grad students that help. Great. And 538 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,720 they just, you know, they would come to class and they, they weren't very good. They didn't 539 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:44,000 want to be there. They don't want to come every time. And so then when one of my, my 540 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:49,720 former undergrad students came and said, you know, I want to do that. I want to be there. 541 00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:54,680 And I'm like, that's a great idea. And at that point, they just felt a couple of them 542 00:46:54,680 --> 00:47:01,400 just volunteered. And then we set this course up. So now they take the course for credit. 543 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,120 Every semester they get one and a half credits for, for that. And I have them, you know, 544 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,080 we meet every week. So we go over, how do you facilitate what's POGO? You know, they've 545 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,560 all been through it. They all know, you know, how my class works. But we talk about the 546 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,440 pedagogy. We talk about the process skills. We talk about how you facilitate and you don't 547 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:25,080 tell them the answer and all of those things. So, you know, it's evolved really through 548 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:32,360 the years, but they also have a, they also hold a help session, a study session that 549 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:37,360 they pair up and they hold it once a week so that they kind of are a TA in that regard. 550 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:42,000 And then they're a learning assistant during the class period. So yeah. So now we have 551 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:47,480 the, you know, a lot of, a lot of faculty use the, the, the LA's for their, to help 552 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,480 them in the class, even if they don't use POGO, you know, they might use, you know, 553 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,560 they might just have here, let's work some problems, you know, more like a flipped classroom 554 00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,160 and then the, the LA's will be there helping the students out. So, you know, we have, we 555 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:07,400 do have classes up to 500 students. I fortunately have not taught that large of a class, but, 556 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,480 but that's it. We have one classroom that holds 500, which I have not been in, thank 557 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:12,480 God. 558 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,600 And Tracy, you said your class sizes are what, around 40? 559 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:23,680 Yeah, 40 is usually the biggest. So yeah. I did, I did have 42 students sign up for Biochem 560 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,720 one year, but I was able to get that split into two classes. So that's my institute. 561 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:32,960 Like what? 42 people? No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. Let's, let's. 562 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:33,960 40, it's so small. 563 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:41,600 But I did want to comment. I also use learning assistants. So even I pretty much any class 564 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,200 larger than 20, I try to find an undergrad who can come and help out and be a learning 565 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,960 assistant, just cause, cause one person can handle, you know, up to five groups, that's 566 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,920 pretty okay. And when you get to six and seven teams that you're trying to make sure that 567 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,860 you're interacting with and answering their questions and keeping them on track, it does 568 00:48:57,860 --> 00:49:02,280 start to get away from you. So even if you don't have giant Lee large classes, the, the 569 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,280 learning assistant is a, is a great option. If you can make it work, I do pay mine. I 570 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,320 have money to pay mine. But I think it's a really good option. 571 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:16,280 Like a class, then you won't have to pay them. No, I use it actually as a recruiting tool. 572 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,640 So part of how I get students to come is I tell them that they can work for the department. 573 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,920 So they're reviewing for the MCAT while also being paid. And then they don't have to work 574 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:25,920 at Starbucks. 575 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:32,600 Yeah. I think the learning assistants are, you know, it's really a win-win cause they 576 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:37,400 learn them. They learn the content better because they've, they've had a second, another 577 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:44,320 year of it. You know, all of them have done great on the, the MCAT portion that has organic 578 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,880 chemistry on it anyway. I mean, they're all good students anyway, but, but it's also great 579 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,440 because they just learned the material. And so they can sometimes remember better than 580 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:59,720 I can what, what did they struggle with? Right? Because sometimes it's like, you know, you 581 00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:05,160 think about how, how can I explain it? Sometimes the concepts are so simple. You think so simple 582 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,560 that what, you know, you kind of sometimes can struggle to figure out how, how can I 583 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:13,760 explain this in a different way? You know, but, but the, but the undergrads can, you 584 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,800 know, they were just there. So I think that having them to maybe just describe something 585 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:23,200 slightly different, you know, is really helpful. And then I also get my LA's this part of the 586 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:28,040 bias. We jumped back to the first, first couple of questions, but I actually get the first 587 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,840 day of class, I get my LA's to come up to the front of the class and talk a little bit 588 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:38,720 about how, how they were successful in the class. And since they all had me, they talk 589 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,680 about the teamwork and you know, you know, and I tell them, you know, mentioned something 590 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:47,820 about what, how you worked in the teams as well as other things too. And so I think coming 591 00:50:47,820 --> 00:50:54,600 from the undergrads too, it's, it's nice because, you know, these are their peers. So, yeah. 592 00:50:54,600 --> 00:51:02,800 Yeah. Yeah. Just one thing that you're talking about having the clicker questions be not 593 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,400 for a grade, they have to answer it for a grade, but not get it correct for a grade. 594 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,160 And I think that's something just in general too, in Poggle classrooms, because one thing 595 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,760 that we didn't mention here, but definitely that comes up is, you know, do you grade the 596 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:22,400 Poggle activities? And my, my instinct is always to say, you don't want to like grade a student 597 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,080 when they're in the process of learning something for the very first time, you want to give 598 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:31,360 them an opportunity to make a mistake, you know, to, to test their learning, to see, 599 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,960 to see where their understanding or their misunderstanding is. 600 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:41,080 Yeah. I, I tell them, I just want you to answer because if you don't understand it, I need 601 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:46,440 to know that because then we can stop. But, you know, they get really excited when they 602 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:51,640 get it right. You know, sometimes they'll cheer, you know, yes, then we got it right. 603 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,680 So it just makes for, you know, an interesting, fun class. 604 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:02,240 Yeah. Tracy, do you want to jump in there on something? 605 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:06,000 Mostly just that I, because I don't teach giant classes. I do collect a physical piece 606 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:12,760 of paper from each team every day. But I, and I, those are graded for completion. And 607 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,920 if they don't get to the end of the activity, so like they maybe didn't get the last question 608 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,680 done, I always tell them, as long as I would, you were working hard and you were working 609 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,360 on the activity and you weren't totally distracted, like, yeah, like you still get full credit 610 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,240 for the whole thing. But I want to see it because I do want to make sure that you're 611 00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,040 on the right track. Cause if something went wrong, I want to be able to talk to you at 612 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,960 the next class and say, okay, this was not right. Like let's revisit this topic. So yeah, 613 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:38,440 there's accountability and then there's, you know, correctness and they're two very different 614 00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:44,320 things. Thank you so much, Tracy and Suzanne. Those are all of the FAQs that we had time 615 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:49,320 for today. Those are again, are big ones. So I'm hoping that if you're listening, that 616 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:55,480 you got something out of that, that they were helpful, a great place to go with more questions. 617 00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,820 The POGLE website, obviously they've got an FAQ section. Also the POGLE practitioners 618 00:53:00,820 --> 00:53:05,360 Facebook page, great place to ask a question. You're going to get a lot of practitioners 619 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:11,520 giving you an answer, helping you out. Big shout out for that. And I'll also add to like, 620 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:17,180 honestly, if you ever went to a workshop, feel free to just email your facilitators because 621 00:53:17,180 --> 00:53:21,980 trust me, we're all POGLE nerds. We love to talk about POGLE. So if you have some sort 622 00:53:21,980 --> 00:53:26,840 of question about POGLE, please don't hesitate to reach out to us and we'd love to answer 623 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:32,600 that for you. So with that being said, again, Tracy, Suzanne, thank you so much for joining 624 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:38,200 us here tonight. And I will hand it back to Wayne. 625 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:43,720 Well thanks, Siobhan. And thanks to Suzanne and Tracy for such a great conversation today 626 00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:48,760 and listening to the podcast and actually to all our podcasts. It's very evident how 627 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:54,080 much POGLE practitioners like to talk about POGLE and how they like to talk to each other 628 00:53:54,080 --> 00:54:00,160 and have great conversations like this. So we have an offer for you. On February 2nd 629 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:06,040 in collaboration with the networking group, we are offering a Zoom happy hour for POGLE 630 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:12,240 practitioners to come together, make new friends, say hi to old friends, talk about POGLE, talk 631 00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:16,440 about anything you want to talk about. And we're going to have details for that coming 632 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:22,000 up in the very, very near future. We hope you all can join us. But for now, keep having 633 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,760 a great time in your POGLE classrooms and we'll see you a little bit later on down the 634 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:47,760 road. Bye bye everybody.