1 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,720 Welcome back to the Poggle Podcast. 2 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,480 This is episode four of season three. 3 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:43,160 I'm your host, Wayne Pearson, and with me today is Siobhan Julian. 4 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:44,160 Hi, Siobhan. 5 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:45,160 Hello, Wayne. 6 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:49,160 What do you have for us today? 7 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:50,160 Oh my goodness. 8 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,300 I am so excited about today's conversation. 9 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:58,300 Today we are talking about what to do when a Poggle activity on something that you want 10 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:00,960 a Poggle doesn't exist. 11 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,060 What do you do if there isn't one out there? 12 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:10,440 And we have with us today two people who have a lot of experience in that particular category. 13 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,760 So we have with us here today, Sydney and Megan. 14 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,000 Sydney Marquez-Bokirin is a music professor. 15 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,600 He teaches music theory and composition at the, at Adelphi University. 16 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,640 And he's the chair of the music department, which is a small liberal arts institution 17 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,360 on Long Island, New York. 18 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,720 He's also the co-chair of the diversity, equity and inclusion council for the college of arts 19 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,360 and sciences there at Adelphi. 20 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,800 We also have with us Megan Morgan Hoffman, who teaches biology at Berea College, which 21 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,800 is a liberal arts school in central Kentucky. 22 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:50,280 Her primary areas are introductory biology, developmental biology and neurobiology. 23 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:56,160 And oh man, we have such great people to talk to us today about not having a Poggle activity, 24 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:57,540 biology and music. 25 00:01:57,540 --> 00:01:58,540 Let's go. 26 00:01:58,540 --> 00:02:02,080 So we'll, we'll open up by saying, you know, just, hey, how did you come across Poggle 27 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,080 in the first place? 28 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:04,640 Cause I think that's always an interesting place to start. 29 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,160 How did you find out about Poggle? 30 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,640 Well, I'll jump in first. 31 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:15,160 For me, it was an absolute fluke and I'm so grateful. 32 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:21,520 I was giving a presentation at a higher education conference in Kentucky. 33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,860 And the person before my presentation had just been to a Poggle workshop and was just 34 00:02:26,860 --> 00:02:27,860 talking about it. 35 00:02:27,860 --> 00:02:28,860 Here's Poggle. 36 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:29,860 It's really great. 37 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:30,860 You need to look at it. 38 00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:36,840 Then I gave my presentation and then I looked into Poggle and there happened to be a workshop 39 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,300 about four hours away from me in the next several weeks. 40 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:44,640 So I went and fell in love and it was, I don't know if I would have learned about it otherwise. 41 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:47,040 So it was a wonderful fluke. 42 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,120 That's really similar thing for me. 43 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,400 I heard about it at a conference. 44 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,320 I heard someone mention it. 45 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:53,320 Sydney. 46 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:59,360 So similar thing for me, but this was a teaching and learning conference at Adelphi University. 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,680 So Adelphi offers an annual teaching and learning conference. 48 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,440 And it was during lunchtime, I was having lunch with colleagues from a variety of disciplines 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,080 and we were talking about what we do in the classroom. 50 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:18,320 And a colleague of mine, Melissa Vanalsen Paris, a chemist said, oh, that sounds like 51 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:19,320 Poggle. 52 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,200 And I go, Poggle, what's Poggle? 53 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,200 And the rest is history. 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:32,200 I visited her class, observed her class, was involved in a chemistry Poggle activity, a 55 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,120 musician. 56 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,960 And then she visited my class and she gave me suggestions and pointed me in the right 57 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,760 direction in terms of going to Poggle regional workshop. 58 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,960 And that was my first sort of formal foray into Poggle and the rest is history. 59 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,960 Yes, yes. 60 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,120 As they say, I drank the Kool-Aid. 61 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Yeah, they do say that. 62 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,700 It's not a lie. 63 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:05,600 So this episode is really focused on what happens when you don't have a published Poggle 64 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:06,840 activity. 65 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,180 Where do you start? 66 00:04:08,180 --> 00:04:10,080 What's helpful when you're crafting your own activities? 67 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,320 And Sydney, I'll have you comment on that first. 68 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,880 Sure, and I just have to say, maybe I was very naive, but I thought everyone had to 69 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,400 write their own Poggle. 70 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:28,920 So this was like a thing that I thought we just had to do if we did Poggle, write your 71 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,040 own activity. 72 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:37,880 So I think that sort of naivety made it less of a challenge for me because I felt you just 73 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,560 had to do it. 74 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:48,040 And maybe part of it too is just being a creative artist and an educator at that and putting 75 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:56,240 those skills together made the process not as challenging as it might be for others. 76 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,120 I don't know. 77 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:05,240 But for me, I just took what I learned from the regional workshop in terms of creating 78 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,480 models. 79 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:15,840 And it didn't really click for me until much later that other people have books with activities 80 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:16,840 already published. 81 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:19,320 It's like, oh. 82 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:28,000 And I guess I'm still in the process of developing such a resource with my collaborator, Josh 83 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,000 Grofman. 84 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:35,280 So our plan is to actually develop such a book for music theory activities, Poggle music 85 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,040 theory activities. 86 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:39,520 That would be so awesome. 87 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:40,520 So awesome. 88 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,320 So Megan, I'll throw it over to you. 89 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:45,320 Where did you start? 90 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,080 How did you get started on making your own activities? 91 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:49,080 Yeah. 92 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:57,840 I was one of the first biologists to join Poggle when it was 100% or mostly chemistry. 93 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:03,120 And so there weren't activities in biology. 94 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,000 And I remember, well, they invited some of us, some of the biology folks, to come to 95 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,440 a writing workshop and to try and help us get rolling writing around. 96 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,360 So that was a gift. 97 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:21,280 And I remember driving back six hours from St. Louis and sort of dictating into a, it 98 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:25,160 probably was a tape recorder at that point, dictating into a tape recorder some ideas 99 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,520 I had for writing some activities. 100 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,480 So that going to the writing workshop was very, very helpful. 101 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:41,200 You don't have to do that, but it certainly gave me some tools that I could start with. 102 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,600 So when you're looking to create your own activity and it doesn't exist out there, what's 103 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,680 the first thing that you consider? 104 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,280 Sort of walk us through your process. 105 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:53,440 Like, what's the first thing that you consider and what follows after that? 106 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,560 Megan, go ahead. 107 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:56,560 Yeah. 108 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,900 One thing that I did that was helpful when I was trying to start out was I sort of tested 109 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:02,800 out some ideas. 110 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:08,880 So without getting formal and writing an activity, I would take a particularly good diagram from 111 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,800 a textbook, for instance, and project it for the students to see. 112 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,640 And then I would ask them a couple of questions about it. 113 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,520 What do you think is going, what is going on in this particular point and how does it 114 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,000 relate to that point? 115 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,920 So almost doing a Poggle activity in the air, right? 116 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,480 Here's a picture. 117 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:30,780 Ask a few questions. 118 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:33,480 Then you can listen to what the students are saying. 119 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,400 And if they're not going in the direction you intended, you can prompt them, right? 120 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:43,760 So rather than have something written where it's harder to make changes on the fly, this 121 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,640 was a good way to test things out and see what might be a good model and how to guide 122 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:49,640 students. 123 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,120 Yeah, that's great. 124 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,080 Sydney, so how do you start? 125 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Tough question. 126 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,040 If I think about where I started, the models, right? 127 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,360 I mean, really trying to figure out, well, what models work. 128 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:12,760 And in music, our models generally unfold in time because we have to listen to the example. 129 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,840 It can be as short as a clip because it could just be a chord, right? 130 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,120 But it's not just about looking at the thing. 131 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,200 It's also about listening to the thing. 132 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:28,200 And then it can become longer examples if it's an excerpt from a piece or even a full 133 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,000 piece. 134 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,920 And generally, I kind of have two approaches. 135 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:40,160 One is a concept that has multiple forms, say, for example, musical texture or different 136 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:47,240 types of chords, like major, minor, augmented diminished triads, for example, or augmented 137 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,000 six chords, et cetera. 138 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:57,320 And then I use those as models and I develop questions that gradually get the students 139 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,600 to the concept, right? 140 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,840 And then, as we know in the learning process, eventually get to that term that's associated 141 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,280 with the concept. 142 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,800 That's one process that is having multiple models. 143 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:21,880 The other is really taking a concept that I've learned myself from someone else and 144 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:30,720 then developing a set of guiding questions, the process-oriented guided part, right? 145 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,400 That lead to understanding something about the model. 146 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:40,780 So a singular model that demonstrates a concept multiple times, right? 147 00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:42,800 And it's accepted as a model. 148 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,500 For example, a chorale by Bach. 149 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:52,080 That's a very standard model for us in music theory. 150 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:58,680 Yeah, I think that's generally how I approach putting a Pogel activity together. 151 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:04,920 I will add, though, that I did attend the writers' retreat and that was really, really 152 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:10,760 helpful because then I went beyond just writing the models and really thought about the kind 153 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:17,080 of questions I asked, the order of the questions and the way the questions are asked. 154 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:22,400 And then the Pogel pack, the clearinghouse, because then I got feedback. 155 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:28,440 Oh, I realized I didn't do this thing that would be really helpful for our students, 156 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,440 such as actually explicitly saying, working in your teams, come to agreement on. 157 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,680 That is tremendously helpful, right? 158 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,320 Because Pogel is all about collaborative processes, right? 159 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,640 And I kind of presumed that that would happen. 160 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:52,040 And I did realize that stating something explicitly is really, really helpful, right? 161 00:10:52,040 --> 00:11:01,480 Because by saying that, it avoids the problem of students moving forward on their own individually 162 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,840 as opposed to working as a team. 163 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:13,080 Yeah, I've started in the Pogels that I've written, it always, or Pogel-like activities 164 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,120 that I've written, it really does need to start with the model, you know, and making 165 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,920 sure that that's a good starting place. 166 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,960 But then, yeah, absolutely, the order of the questions you ask, those little phrasing things, 167 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,600 Sydney, absolutely. 168 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaking of a model, what does a model look like in your discipline? 169 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:40,840 So Sydney, obviously, with music, there's that element of an aural model where you're 170 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,080 hearing it. 171 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,480 But is it always that case? 172 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:49,740 Are you all, and I'll ask you very specifically for music, are you always going to use that? 173 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:51,640 You mentioned chorale by Bach. 174 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,520 Is it always a full piece? 175 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,880 So sort of what does a model look like in your discipline? 176 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:07,060 So at least the models that I create and use, not necessarily create, but use, they can 177 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:15,040 range from single chords and just the model, or they could be excerpts of a longer piece, 178 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,800 or they could be a full piece. 179 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,880 I generally, I haven't used extended pieces because the longer the models are and the 180 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:29,360 more they are of them, the more time it takes in a 50 minute class, time is precious. 181 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,760 Well, time is precious, period, anyway. 182 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,920 But yes, I would say that we always have to listen. 183 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,080 So we always have to listen to the music that we're analyzing. 184 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,440 We always have to look at the score. 185 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:51,220 And then we always have to look while listening so that those multiple processes are scaffolded 186 00:12:51,220 --> 00:12:53,760 but also used together. 187 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:59,640 And I might be a little biased here, but I always tell my students that as musicians, 188 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,920 our ears are very powerful tools. 189 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,160 That is a skill that we have and that we should use in analysis. 190 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:14,160 Your ear will tell you a lot more, can tell you a lot more than just versus overthinking 191 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,160 something. 192 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,380 And while you're looking at the score and those dots on the page may not always translate 193 00:13:20,380 --> 00:13:26,800 into sound, but especially for our students. 194 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:34,400 But once you make that association by listening and looking at the score, then you're really 195 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:35,400 putting everything together. 196 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,640 Yes, I'll leave it there. 197 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:46,040 So Megan, teaching biology, what makes the models that you work with different than the 198 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,640 classic chemistry Pogel models? 199 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:56,080 Right, but the classic chemistry Pogel models were the ones I saw anywhere were visuals. 200 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:01,480 So images of something or equations. 201 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,840 And so I'm still stuck in the visual. 202 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:14,240 I do have to say that, but I've gone from thinking the model must be an image to using 203 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,360 videos or animations. 204 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:23,680 Biology is a lot of biology is kinetic and you have to see something unfold to really 205 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,220 understand what's going on. 206 00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:35,120 So having students look at videos or animations and also just text and not a book text, but 207 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,020 I wrote an activity about learning the language of biology. 208 00:14:39,020 --> 00:14:43,200 So much of biology's terms come from Latin and Greek. 209 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:52,040 So helping students see that you don't have to memorize thousands of terms, you can decipher 210 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,040 them. 211 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:59,200 So just having words and descriptions as a model worked really well. 212 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,000 Or I have an activity on mindset. 213 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:10,680 And so having quotations from different people and having them analyze mindset by reading 214 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,000 what people say, so I'm still visual. 215 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,920 I'm still stuck in the visual, but there's more of a variety to them now. 216 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,440 I love that so much. 217 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,640 That's such a fantastic idea. 218 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,000 And what both of you are saying that you're really pulling on, like we're taking the model 219 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,320 from a static image on the page to something that we're engaging other senses in. 220 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,840 We're listening, we're watching. 221 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,160 And just to kind of go off on that, because you are talking about very different types 222 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:44,160 of models, more active, more engaging models than we have in the published books, because 223 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,360 we're writing our own. 224 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,480 Do you find yourself altering the roles that students have in order to better interpret 225 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:51,600 those models? 226 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,440 So I'll go to Megan first on this. 227 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,040 Just today we were using something I call the model pointer. 228 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,160 So their requirement, because the models can have a lot of information and their job is 229 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,040 point to the part of the model that your team is talking about right now to make sure everyone's 230 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,760 actually talking about the same thing. 231 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:21,620 Or the, I don't think this is unique, but the molecule handler, if we're building things, 232 00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:26,160 one person is in charge of moving around the pieces. 233 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,400 So when we're sorting molecules, they're in charge of that. 234 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,400 Or someone to run the computer if they're watching an animation or a model. 235 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,880 And Sydney, I mean, with music, how does that affect your roles? 236 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,280 Oh my gosh. 237 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,680 Shravan, this is like a light bulb moment. 238 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:44,680 It's like, what? 239 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:52,480 I can change the roles? 240 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,680 I'll have to think about this now. 241 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,280 I've changed the names. 242 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,040 I used to use manager. 243 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,040 Now it's facilitator. 244 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,040 I really like that term. 245 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,640 But boy, I don't have to think about this. 246 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,640 Oh wow, okay. 247 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,960 Maybe it's something that I should apply in my own classroom. 248 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,680 So thank you. 249 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:18,040 There is one thing that I would like to add because Shravan, you mentioned we're talking 250 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,640 about experiencing models in a variety of ways. 251 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:29,160 I neglected to mention that sometimes the chorale that we're analyzing, I have my students 252 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,840 sing it. 253 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,200 So they're really engaging multiple senses. 254 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,760 They're really experiencing the music. 255 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,400 I don't just play it for them. 256 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:42,400 Yeah. 257 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,400 Yeah. 258 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,840 I love this so much because for someone who teaches chemistry, and that's me, I'm very 259 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,400 fortunate that I have two published Flynn books for high school chemistry. 260 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,320 And I've been working out of those quite a lot. 261 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,480 And as such, it's like that that's what a Poggle activity is. 262 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,500 And of course, we want to go through that vetting process and have these high quality 263 00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:06,160 activities published. 264 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,000 But to see how we can expand this when you don't have the published activities and then 265 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,880 how you can make it much broader, much richer, looking at it a variety of ways. 266 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,000 I love that and having the students actually sing it. 267 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,960 That's fantastic. 268 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,840 So this is a little more specific and feel free to answer in terms of the specifics of 269 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,320 your discipline. 270 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:33,280 But even in chemistry, not every topic is suitable for a Poggle activity just due to 271 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,360 the nature of the topic. 272 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:40,440 So what are some topics in your discipline that are just really, really hard to write 273 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:46,760 a Poggle activity for that don't necessarily go well with this sort of active learning 274 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,120 environment? 275 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,160 And Sydney, go ahead. 276 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,680 Yeah, I've been thinking about this. 277 00:18:53,680 --> 00:19:01,320 And there are two factors that generally keep me from Poggle-izing something, if I can verb 278 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,320 that term, which is time. 279 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:06,320 Right. 280 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,920 Sometimes it's not actually the concept, but time. 281 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:16,200 And I think that's one of the challenges that we have to kind of just get over, that we 282 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,640 can invest the time to create the activity because that activity will be of use for us 283 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,200 in the future. 284 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:34,600 But yes, there are, I feel, certain concepts that I haven't quite figured out, primarily 285 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:40,780 because it involves sort of more the creativity of the students. 286 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:47,640 So then they get really invested in wanting to do what they want individually. 287 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:56,080 And the concept that our creativity, our individual creativity, that's us, right? 288 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,080 Singly. 289 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,160 And so it's hard to put that into a team concept, but I think there's a way. 290 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,480 I mean, I like the idea of composing as a team, for example. 291 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:14,800 I'm not there yet because when I've tried this, students kind of rebel. 292 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,520 But I don't want to do that. 293 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:22,360 I mean, I would hear them in their teams. 294 00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:23,560 It was not working. 295 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:31,080 So that's one, like concepts that involve creativity at the core. 296 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:37,240 And the other are just more advanced concepts that I haven't yet quite figured out how to 297 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,960 find an effective, or determine an effective model. 298 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,280 I'm sorry that I'm speaking sort of generally, but I hope that that's not... 299 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,280 That that's helpful. 300 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:48,480 Yeah, I think that is helpful. 301 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,840 And because that's something too that with music, when you talk about music theory, I 302 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:59,400 can see the more concrete things like you were talking about being very open to an activity. 303 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,040 But like you said, those more creative aspects like composition, yeah, how are you going 304 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,080 to get four people in one team? 305 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,440 That's right. 306 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:07,440 Yeah. 307 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,200 Chords, scales, musical textures, you know, yeah, that can be done. 308 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,880 And others that's why they're still struggling. 309 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,120 I like that you're not saying it can't be done. 310 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,160 I like that you're just saying, I haven't done it yet. 311 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,720 I haven't done it yet. 312 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,400 That is a perfect attitude to have. 313 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,920 All right, Megan, so what are some things that are just kind of tough to have a Pogol 314 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:34,920 activity for? 315 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:40,280 Yeah, I was trying to think of this because I haven't hit anything yet that I don't think 316 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,960 I can do, but you know, my upper level classes, I haven't spent as much time writing activities 317 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:46,960 for those. 318 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,080 But I had two thoughts. 319 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:55,760 One with listening to Sydney, the creative part, right, the creative part of science, 320 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,560 one part of that might be designing experiments. 321 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,800 And how do you guide people through that? 322 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,720 Yeah, you can give them some hints, but how do you make them get them there or really 323 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,120 deep analysis of something where there's not a single right answer? 324 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:19,760 And so that made me think that the Pogol project recognizes two kinds of activities right now, 325 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,920 the learning cycle ones, which I think mostly I've been thinking about while we're talking 326 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,280 here, but also the application activity. 327 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:36,680 And that's one where students might already have the skills and the background. 328 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:43,080 So you're not teaching them something new, but you're letting them apply what they know 329 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,000 to some new scenario. 330 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,280 So I think that may be where we need to think about it. 331 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:58,080 Okay, maybe this topic doesn't lend itself to learning cycle, but maybe it's an application, 332 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,080 right? 333 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,920 Maybe there's a case study in medicine you can use or, you know, there's somewhere where 334 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,840 you're applying what you already learned. 335 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:07,840 I love that. 336 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:08,840 I love that. 337 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,760 Yeah, definitely thinking and thinking about the activities as serving two different functions. 338 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:19,860 You know, sometimes that you have the learning cycle function versus the application function. 339 00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:20,980 Love this so much. 340 00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:29,080 So how do you respond to people who say, because I'm sure, especially in music, Sydney, say, 341 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,340 this won't work with Pogol. 342 00:23:31,340 --> 00:23:32,340 This won't work with Pogol. 343 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:33,340 We can't do that. 344 00:23:33,340 --> 00:23:37,840 We can't do music through a Pogol activity or biology. 345 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320 No, just it's chemistry. 346 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,320 That's where it started. 347 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,360 So how do you respond to someone who says, no, you can't do that through Pogol? 348 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,160 Who wants to speak? 349 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:58,520 Well, I would probably, if this was a natural conversation, I would pause and really think 350 00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,980 about the question, right? 351 00:23:59,980 --> 00:24:06,200 And on the specifics of what this will not work, then this, right? 352 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:13,680 And I would then gently say, well, let's think about that a bit more. 353 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,760 That's where I would start. 354 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,000 And then eventually I'll get back to them. 355 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,240 And you know, who knows, maybe it is not possible for that particular thing. 356 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,000 And then I would say, okay, I can't come up with anything. 357 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,440 I'm sorry, I can't help you with that one. 358 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:40,440 But then I'll probably toggle to or pivot to another concept, an associated concept 359 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,480 and suggest, no, I can't think of something for that. 360 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,440 But how about this? 361 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:47,440 Yeah. 362 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,320 Yeah, I like that. 363 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,160 Megan. 364 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,440 This actually brings up something I was wanting to talk about and hadn't found a good place 365 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:58,440 for. 366 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:04,080 Yes, of course, there may be some things that we really just can't put into either the learning 367 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,920 cycle or the application. 368 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,560 But maybe there's a new avenue for Pogol, right? 369 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,720 So maybe there are ways to just stretch what Pogol does now. 370 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:22,800 But also, I think if you are trying to get students to an understanding, then you can 371 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,040 use Pogol to get there. 372 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:32,920 There was an article written a while ago by Dan Libby talking about how to turn a lecture 373 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,580 into a guided inquiry activity. 374 00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:43,360 And then in more recent years, Laura Trout has helped develop a scaffold for authors. 375 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,640 So at the writing workshops, we use a scaffold. 376 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:52,640 And here's how I think you might think about this, how to Pogolize something. 377 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,080 Start with the assessment question. 378 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:02,300 If you were going to write an exam or a final paper prompt, what is that? 379 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:03,300 And then you work backwards. 380 00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:12,320 And you say, OK, if I want my students to answer this question, what is the first question 381 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,120 I have to ask myself in order to get at that question? 382 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:22,400 And then what content did I need to know to ask that question to answer the prompt? 383 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:29,040 And you kind of break the prompt down into the basic concepts students need to know or 384 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,080 the basic skills they need to have. 385 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:37,880 They need to be able to parse a sentence or they need to be able to analyze a novel or 386 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,280 they need to be able to code something in computer science. 387 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,080 And you just break it apart and you keep saying, OK, well, what did I need to know to say that? 388 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,520 And then you step back again. 389 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,600 What did I need to know to say that? 390 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:57,000 And if you can do that, then you can write a guided inquiry activity about it. 391 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Sydney. 392 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,200 In lesson two, scaffold. 393 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:11,320 Instead of saying no, when someone says, I can't do use Poggle in this con with this 394 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,400 concept, with this activity, with this whatever. 395 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,960 Take it step by step and follow what Megan just said. 396 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:20,960 Scaffold. 397 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,720 I'm hurting so much today. 398 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:33,040 You two obviously are working in disciplines where you don't didn't always have a published 399 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,720 activities. 400 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,480 Do you need a full blown published activity to run a Poggle like session? 401 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,760 Do you need that published activity, Megan? 402 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,480 I'm going to say no. 403 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,480 I think. 404 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:59,460 Part of what makes the guided inquiry is you are helping students along the path to get 405 00:27:59,460 --> 00:28:02,100 to an understanding. 406 00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:10,240 And I think that's possible to do even without a published activity or an activity at all. 407 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:18,800 I know I'm to counter it to something, another way of learning, I am really awful at running 408 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:19,800 discussions. 409 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,800 I just don't do it well. 410 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,080 I don't ask the right questions. 411 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,840 I can't get students always engaged in a discussion. 412 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:33,600 But I found if I structured it in a guided inquiry way, then I can do it and they can 413 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,600 do it. 414 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:41,160 So I can ask them a few leading questions and then let them talk with each other and 415 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,200 then bring them back. 416 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,620 That I can do. 417 00:28:44,620 --> 00:28:50,480 So I think there are ways to get students to explore something on their own with you 418 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,120 just nudging them in the right direction. 419 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,920 Thank you. 420 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:55,920 Sydney. 421 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,160 Oh, I have to say no. 422 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:05,480 Because we don't have any public. 423 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,160 So yeah, that's no, but I want to. 424 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,480 So rephrase the question for you, Sydney, like what if you don't have an activity that 425 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,080 you've even fully written, you just more kind of have an idea. 426 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,600 Are you able to incorporate that into your classroom? 427 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,040 Are you waiting until you have finished writing that and you're like, this is good. 428 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:29,800 I have revised it five times and now I'm going to run it with my students. 429 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:36,680 Oh, if I did that, I would not ever have any activities or any Poggle in my classroom. 430 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:43,620 I think it's really helpful to think about Poggle as a continuum. 431 00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:44,620 What does that mean? 432 00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:51,000 So you have used the word Poggle like, so that's one towards one end of the continuum. 433 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,920 And then the other end are the published activities. 434 00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:02,240 For me, what really is appealing about Poggle, what is really useful with Poggle is that 435 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,280 there are a variety of ways of applying Poggle principles. 436 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,960 The activity is just one concrete example of what Poggle is. 437 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:22,380 That the soft skills that are learned in the process are valuable as well. 438 00:30:22,380 --> 00:30:27,920 So the idea of teamwork, like sometimes I will have my students work in teams, even 439 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,920 though I don't have a Poggle activity. 440 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,640 But I don't think one has to have a Poggle activity to have students work in teams, because 441 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,240 it's also about building that community in the team. 442 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:50,160 So that when they do have an activity, they already feel that they're a team working together 443 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,080 to succeed in this activity. 444 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:58,720 And then there are other variants in between, right? 445 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Because I may have a Poggle activity, but I think if I wait until I'm happy with it, 446 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,920 I would never be able to use it. 447 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:15,400 And I think the best way to actually figure out how to improve the activity is to just 448 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,680 use it. 449 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:24,480 And I will say, though, that I usually have designed a full activity that I try out. 450 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:32,700 I don't tend to, I do not try just a set of questions and not the entire activity. 451 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:36,920 And I've learned a lot, because then I know, okay, well, this activity actually takes two 452 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,920 days, not one day, 15 minutes, just not enough. 453 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,480 That happens a lot. 454 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:48,680 And then I either finesse the activity so that it does fit the 15 minute framework of 455 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:56,600 my class, timeframe of my class, or I accept that, hey, it's two days, or even three days, 456 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:02,160 and that there's this continual building upon on terms of student learning from one class 457 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,960 to the next. 458 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,880 Yeah, absolutely. 459 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:14,000 So going right along with what Sydney said about just kind of learning over time and, 460 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,240 you know, okay, this is one day, okay, I'm not going to wait until I've revised it five 461 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:19,240 times. 462 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:25,480 What are some of your biggest lessons learned from your experience of writing your own Pogels? 463 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,960 What are the lessons that you've really taken from this? 464 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,960 And I'll start with Megan. 465 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,200 Thanks. 466 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,360 One is just make notes. 467 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:42,580 I have my activity that I'm, you know, that even if I've used it 10 times, this class 468 00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:46,900 of students will see something else in there that I didn't see or will read something differently. 469 00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:47,900 So make notes. 470 00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:49,160 This was great. 471 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,520 This was horrible. 472 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,400 You know, students read this question to mean this. 473 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,520 And if I don't make the notes during the class, I'm not going to remember it. 474 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,480 And so that's really important. 475 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,800 And another thing I've done, which is incredibly helpful, is if students are not reading a 476 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:13,280 question the way I intended it, I ask them, how would you rephrase this question? 477 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,760 You know, I explain what I meant, and then I'll say, okay, what's a better way to ask 478 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:17,760 this question? 479 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,720 And they've been great editors, because once they know what I'm trying to get them to think 480 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,720 about, they know how to say it. 481 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,760 So that's been hugely helpful. 482 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:30,760 That's fantastic. 483 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,720 So I'm asking the students to contribute to the process. 484 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:34,720 Yeah. 485 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,560 Sydney, so what are some of your biggest lessons learned? 486 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,400 Okay, so I just learned another lesson today. 487 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,760 Lesson number one was you can change roles. 488 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,080 So can I, I'm just going to jump in there. 489 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:55,280 And the first time I was at a Pogal workshop, it was NCAP 2017 National Conference to Advanced 490 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,600 Pogal Practice in 2017. 491 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,920 And I went up in like a newbie and introduced myself. 492 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,440 No, he said this in a talk. 493 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:12,040 It was Rick Moog, and he said something like, there's no right way to do Pogal. 494 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,680 And that was just very freeing for me to hear Rick say that, to say that, you know, you 495 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,800 can interpret it for your own classroom. 496 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,920 So Sydney, passing that message on to you. 497 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,000 So lesson one, Sydney can have different roles. 498 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,240 Yes, yes, yes. 499 00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:29,680 Lesson three, students as editors. 500 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,920 Oh gosh, what a concept. 501 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,920 Thank you, Megan. 502 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,960 That I will certainly, certainly keep in mind. 503 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,480 And something else that I found very helpful is having a collaborator. 504 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,840 And for me, that's Joshua Groffman. 505 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,400 He teaches at Southern Connecticut State University. 506 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,680 He's actually the chairperson there. 507 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,640 And we've worked together on a variety of activities. 508 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,200 We've shared each other's activities. 509 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,880 We've given each other comments. 510 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,280 I've even used his activities in my classroom, although I'm not sure if he's used mine. 511 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,280 I don't know. 512 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,160 I'll ask. 513 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,200 But that's continuing. 514 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,080 We'll continue to work together. 515 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,480 And then there was something else I was going to add. 516 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,520 Well, while you're thinking of that, Megan, you were kind of nodding when he was talking 517 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,520 about collaborators. 518 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,600 And you have collaborative relationships that you've lent on over the years. 519 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,600 Yeah, off and on. 520 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,960 There were a group of some biology professors who were at that first writing workshop. 521 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,200 And we bounced some ideas off each other. 522 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,480 We tried to write together and it turned out we had sort of two camps in terms of how we 523 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,920 should organize things. 524 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:51,180 But I did have, I have had a colleague who was helpful. 525 00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:55,440 And then I've also met, there are many more biologists now in Prokof. 526 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,560 So we're starting to kind of talk with each other more too. 527 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,720 But I haven't had a one single partner the way that Sydney has found someone to work 528 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:05,720 with. 529 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:06,720 Yeah, that's so great. 530 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:07,720 That's so great. 531 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,280 Yeah, Sydney, did you have something else? 532 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,280 Yes, I remembered. 533 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:12,280 Okay, good. 534 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:13,280 Lessons learned. 535 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,280 Yes. 536 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,720 Which is that it's okay if an activity doesn't fly. 537 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:22,920 If it doesn't work. 538 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:29,160 And similarly, I think I've mentioned this already, it's okay if the activity you design 539 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,960 isn't at its best form. 540 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:42,920 And it's also okay if you make adjustments on the activity on the fly. 541 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:53,000 I have found myself doing this and just adjusting and really just accepting that. 542 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,840 And then deciding after the fact whether that was an adjustment specific to that class or 543 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,080 it's actually an adjustment that like a eureka moment. 544 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:11,040 Oh, I should do this and make this included as part of the next version of the activity. 545 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,760 Yeah, that's such fantastic advice. 546 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:21,160 I think in life, not only in writing Poggle activities. 547 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,120 Very much along the same lines. 548 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:31,160 I love running the virtual fundamentals Poggle workshop introducing new teachers to Poggle. 549 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,720 And sometimes they start to realize through this that they love the idea, but they don't 550 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,880 have the published stuff out there. 551 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,200 So they're in a position where they might have to write their own if they want to use 552 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,340 this pedagogy. 553 00:37:44,340 --> 00:37:48,740 How do we support new practitioners who are looking for these activities and looking to 554 00:37:48,740 --> 00:37:49,740 write their own? 555 00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:51,480 Megan, go ahead. 556 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:58,240 Yeah, certainly if someone has been to a workshop, they have contacts now in the Poggle project. 557 00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:05,920 So contact one of the people who facilitated your workshop and say, do you know anyone 558 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,080 in this discipline? 559 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,640 And we get introductions all the time by email. 560 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,480 Oh, here's a colleague who is interested in this topic. 561 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,360 Do you guys know anybody? 562 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:21,180 And that's one way to find someone who either has already drafted some activities and wants 563 00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:25,000 to share them or to brainstorm with. 564 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,420 So that's definitely one thing. 565 00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:31,760 You can also write to the Poggle project, but you've already made contacts personally with 566 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,080 people at these workshops, so I think that's a great place to start. 567 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:43,720 And another is the PAC, the Poggle Activity Clearinghouse, is really rolling now. 568 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:50,520 And you can get access to it just by taking a short training session, 90 minutes or something, 569 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,840 and you have access to these activities. 570 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,800 So you might find an activity in your discipline that people have written and are trying to 571 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:10,160 get feedback on, or you can say, I would love to write an activity on the first Battle of 572 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,160 the Bull Run. 573 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,920 Does anybody have ideas on how to do that? 574 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,680 And that goes out to the community, and you might find someone there who wants to collaborate. 575 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:24,600 Yeah, the Poggle Activity Clearinghouse, the PAC, they really have a very large spectrum 576 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,280 of different things in terms of getting new activities going. 577 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,720 So if we have newer listeners out there and are they unaware of that, that's definitely 578 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:34,640 something to check out. 579 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,480 We can go from an activity that's almost ready to one, like Megan said, I just have an idea 580 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,040 and I don't want to jump on this with me. 581 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,900 Sydney, how do we support new practitioners who are looking to write? 582 00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:53,160 I think I'm just going to amplify something that Megan said, which is consultation. 583 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:58,840 And turn to people who, to your connections that you're developing, right? 584 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:05,720 Which reminds me, we do have a Facebook group for Poggle practitioners. 585 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:11,160 And if you want to just ask, oh, I want to do this, but I have no idea where to start, 586 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,160 just post a message there. 587 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,000 And people are so good about responding and helping each other. 588 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,000 That's one. 589 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:25,640 And if you do have someone in your institution who is a Poggle practitioner, then consulting 590 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,820 with them, because they will know your institution, they hopefully will know you also. 591 00:40:30,820 --> 00:40:38,240 And even though they might not be in your discipline, as educators, and also Poggle 592 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:43,760 educators, we would be familiar with the learning cycle enough that we might be able to ask 593 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,520 questions about, well, what kinds of models are you looking for? 594 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:47,920 What's the concept? 595 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,360 And point in the right direction, even if the detail of the activity is not exactly 596 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,160 there yet in that consultation. 597 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,880 Kind of that guiding process, I think, will be helpful. 598 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,600 No, that's a great, great point that you can have people help you out who aren't necessarily 599 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,360 in your same discipline. 600 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,680 And they have that experience more with writing Poggle activities. 601 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,000 Yeah, 100%. 602 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:19,560 I've helped a English language arts teacher at my high school write a Poggle about film 603 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,600 noir and just introducing film noir. 604 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,040 And it was just, yeah, it was because, but he got it. 605 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,600 He's like, well, you know, Sean is a nation of the ins and outs of it. 606 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:30,600 It's that learning cycle. 607 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:31,600 Oh, that's terrific. 608 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,240 That's exactly it, right? 609 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:43,680 And I'm sure you, by just that conversation, someone new to Poggle can arrive on their 610 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:50,100 own to how to create the activity or what kinds of models are looking for, et cetera. 611 00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:56,120 And just to reiterate what things that Megan and Sydney have said, number one, if you've 612 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,700 been to a workshop and you're looking to write your own, yes, please do feel free to send 613 00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:06,440 an email to the facilitators, because if we sign up to facilitate a workshop, we love 614 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,120 to talk about Poggle. 615 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,600 We would love to take your email. 616 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,000 We would love to get back to you. 617 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,820 So we are absolutely open to that. 618 00:42:13,820 --> 00:42:18,840 And then, yeah, the plug for the Facebook Poggle practitioners page, everyone in the 619 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:25,200 Poggle project is just incredibly kind, incredibly nice and wants to help you out. 620 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,560 So don't, you know, absolutely post a question and people will get back to you and help you 621 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,560 out in any way they can. 622 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:37,000 And something that came up in some of our earlier conversations that I just want to 623 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:43,540 make sure that we talk about, I think, and I know for me personally, for some activities 624 00:42:43,540 --> 00:42:50,060 that I've written, I get very self-conscious sometimes when I'm thinking about sharing 625 00:42:50,060 --> 00:42:55,700 them with other people, because I'm like, oh my God, no, I wrote this for my classroom. 626 00:42:55,700 --> 00:43:00,440 And to have someone else look at it, just, I just feel like it's not enough. 627 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,180 It's not good enough. 628 00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:08,200 As people who've obviously written their own and then shared it with others, how do you 629 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,600 move past that kind of a mindset? 630 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,520 Megan. 631 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:16,520 This is really embarrassing. 632 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,080 And I'm saying this to however many people are listening. 633 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,080 This is embarrassing. 634 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:26,900 I have been working on activities for 16 years and I have been, I've played lots of roles 635 00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:31,920 in the POCO project where I am reviewing people's activities or giving them feedback on their 636 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,920 activities or helping them write their activities. 637 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:42,160 And I have not had the confidence to put mine into that same process. 638 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:49,360 And so just this year, I finally got over myself and I'm starting to submit these to 639 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,500 the PAC. 640 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:54,520 I'm starting to ask other folks for feedback. 641 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,840 And as he said, Siobhan, there's nobody to be afraid of in this project. 642 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,320 No one is judgmental. 643 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,480 No one is going to write back and say, oh my God, Megan, what the heck were you thinking? 644 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,880 That's not going to happen. 645 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:14,680 So everybody in this project wants to help us be better teachers and better writers. 646 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,600 So the PAC is there. 647 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:19,600 Colleagues are there. 648 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,800 Just do it. 649 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,080 Yeah, Sidney. 650 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:34,160 I think for me, it's the experience of being someone who's really interested in POGO practice 651 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,240 without activities. 652 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,880 I feel like I would like to pay it forward. 653 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:41,880 Is that the right phrase? 654 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:42,880 Oh yeah. 655 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:43,880 Yeah. 656 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:50,920 By not worrying about my ego in the process and just letting that go. 657 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:57,680 I completely agree, Siobhan, in terms of hesitation in sharing and being critiqued. 658 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:58,960 Oh gosh. 659 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,480 That really can be very challenging. 660 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:13,860 But for me, I think about, well, if these are available, if these are shared, if others 661 00:45:13,860 --> 00:45:22,640 know that there are folks in music theory who are writing POGO activities, then maybe 662 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:28,280 they won't say, oh, that's not possible because we know it is possible. 663 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:34,160 And that can only be known if we put ourselves out there. 664 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,120 You're such a torchbearer, Sidney. 665 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:37,120 I love it. 666 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:38,520 I love it so much. 667 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:39,560 Wait, sorry. 668 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,920 What does that phrase mean, torchbearer? 669 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,640 You're heading the charge. 670 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,320 You're leading the way. 671 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:54,840 You're representing music teachers out there, but really showing them that this is possible. 672 00:45:54,840 --> 00:46:01,160 Because I know that I'm fairly certain that POGO pedagogy is not widespread amongst the 673 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,840 music educators community. 674 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,560 But you being out there and you having the courage to put your activities out there and 675 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,720 your platform to say, hey, this works. 676 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:16,920 Now, man, that's going to change so many people's minds and push POGO in such an exciting new 677 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:17,920 direction. 678 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,640 Well, you know what I've been thinking about are my students. 679 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,200 So I have a lot of music ed majors in my classes. 680 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,280 So they enjoy POGO. 681 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:34,400 So I'm imagining 10 years down the road, will they be writing their own POGO activities 682 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,760 for their students? 683 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,640 That excites me. 684 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,160 That would be terrific if that happens. 685 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,040 But I also am careful that I don't push them in that direction. 686 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,920 That really it's their personal journey. 687 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:57,000 But I am hopeful that they seem to be having a very positive experience in that this is 688 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,760 the kind of learning, the kind of learning experience or the kind of learning process 689 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:09,920 that they would want to have their own students experience in their classrooms. 690 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:10,920 That's fantastic. 691 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:11,920 All right. 692 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,520 Thank you both so much for talking with us. 693 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,800 And I just want to give you an opportunity to say, have your last final piece, last little 694 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,480 bit of sign off. 695 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:26,320 Sydney, what are your final words of wisdom that you want to give to us here today? 696 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,320 I don't know. 697 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,400 And not words of wisdom, but just words of gratitude. 698 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,360 I am so grateful for this opportunity. 699 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,200 Thank you for inviting me. 700 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,160 And shout out to all music theorists there. 701 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:40,160 I'm here. 702 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:45,320 Feel free to contact me and we'll chat. 703 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:46,320 Thank you again. 704 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:47,320 Love it. 705 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,320 Megan. 706 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:49,320 Yes. 707 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,560 Also, thank you for including me in this. 708 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,920 It's always a joy to talk with all of you folks. 709 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,520 I could sit and talk POGO forever. 710 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:02,880 And especially with Sydney and Siobhan and Wayne, it's wonderful. 711 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,040 And I just welcome everyone to the POGO community who's listening to this. 712 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,040 Yes, definitely. 713 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:09,040 Definitely. 714 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,680 If you're new to the community and you have any questions, please just contact someone, 715 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:18,920 post to Facebook and we'll happily support you in your journey as you start writing some 716 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,360 of your own activities. 717 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,400 Thank you both so much for sharing everything. 718 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,200 This has been such a wonderful conversation. 719 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,240 Thank you everyone for listening and I will hand it back to Wayne. 720 00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:37,160 Well thank you Siobhan and thank you Megan and Sydney for just a fantastic, shall I say, 721 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:43,160 really active conversation about the POGO classroom and the activities that we use in 722 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:44,160 the POGO classroom. 723 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:49,600 Now, of course, this is where we ask our listeners to join the conversation. 724 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:56,080 Again, if you go to the Facebook page and you use hashtag the POGO podcast, you can 725 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,080 join in this conversation. 726 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,240 Let us know what you do when faced with the lack of an activity in your classroom and 727 00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:07,400 how you can POGO through that situation. 728 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:13,440 So we'll be back in a couple of weeks with another episode of the POGO podcast. 729 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:25,760 Bye bye everybody.