1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 P hug 2 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:38,000 Welcome back everybody. You're listening to episode three of season three of the Poggle podcast. Season three is all about the practice of Poggle. 3 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:47,000 Each episode deals with a different aspect of facilitation in the Poggle classroom. My name is Wayne Pearson and our interviewer today is Alex Grewshaw. Hello Alex. 4 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Good morning. Good afternoon. Hello Wayne. 5 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Hi Alex. How are you? 6 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Good. Good. Good. 7 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:07,000 Okay. I see that today's episode is all about roles. What types of roles are we talking about? Dinner roles, finger roles, crescent roles? 8 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Actually we're going to talk about Poggle roles or roles in Poggle teams as they work in the classroom. With that, I'm going to roll with it. 9 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,000 Okay. That sounds great. I think it's time I turned it over to you. 10 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:38,000 All right. Sounds good. So as I said, we're going to talk about how things work within a team instead of a Poggle classroom and in particular talk about roles that we use within those teams. 11 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:51,000 And we've found within the Poggle project that it's important to use roles and basically we're going to talk about how facilitators use roles to promote student learning and growth in the classroom. 12 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:58,000 And with me today is Kristen Drury who teaches chemistry at high school level on Long Island, New York. 13 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,000 And Rodney Austin who teaches organic and biochemistry at the college level in Western Pennsylvania. Welcome to you both. 14 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,000 Hello. It's good to be here. Hello. 15 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:24,000 All right. So, so I just want to open this up by having you briefly describe what the traditional roles are in a Poggle team and how they function within the team. 16 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,000 Who wants to go first? Okay. 17 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I guess I can talk first. The first major role we have as a manager. 18 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:43,000 They usually have make sure all the members of their team are fulfilling their role, signing tasks if needed, making sure they're paying attention at the time, and then all the team members are participating. 19 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Okay. 20 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:57,000 The second role we typically have in a traditional Poggle classroom is that of the presenter. And the role of the presenter is really to ask questions of the instructor for one, but then also to report out orally. 21 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:07,000 That's your team answer or also sometimes to write that on a blackboard or a whiteboard so they're actually presenting the data so saying something like, here's what our group found. 22 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000 Okay. 23 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Kristen, what's next? A third role could be recorder. 24 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:23,000 They would record the names and their roles of group members at the beginning of the class, and they can also record important aspects of the group discussion observations or any insights they had. 25 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Our fourth role typically is reflector, and that person observes and reports on the team dynamics and behavior while learning and they can also help the team reflect on content material so they might help the team think about two models, two related 26 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:48,000 models or two related concepts, and how they can both help you learn something about it. So they might say something like, let me see if everyone has finished this question before we move on. 27 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,000 So they're really helping the team reflect on what they know. 28 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Okay. 29 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:04,000 But, you know, I know from, you know, going to meetings and workshops. There are a lot of other variations on some of these roles. 30 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Or, you know, actually, you know, what do you do if you have five people in a team, or what do you do if you have only three people on a team so can you tell us a little bit about some of the other functions that we might see in team work. 31 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:32,000 So yeah so sometimes you know if you're talking about different sizes of teams you know you can actually have someone be both the recorder and the reflector right so those roles in some ways go hand in hand. 32 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:39,000 Sometimes you know, maybe a manager and a presenter perhaps but it'd be less likely perhaps. 33 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Another role that you could have, maybe if you have a five person team or maybe if it's a different type of days you can have a role of a model builder. 34 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Maybe you have a physical model or some sort of manipulative that you're using that person can be in charge and really hope this the team built the model so they might go to the front and get the materials the kit that's needed for that, and they might 35 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:06,000 sort of help direct the team and actually building the model. Oh, I can, and I can see where that would work. That would happen a lot in organic chemistry. 36 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,000 Right, I mean, yeah. 37 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,000 Yeah, that's, that's something you actually do in your classroom or. 38 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:25,000 Yeah, yeah I do in my organic chemistry and we oftentimes we have a class of about 60 or so so I'll have little baggies of kits of model so they'll have you know carbons hydrogens and bonds, and that type of thing and the one the students will come down 39 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:34,000 and get that and so we'll build structures to demonstrate a concept like RNs or something along those lines and also works in biochemistry as well. 40 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:41,000 We'll build alpha helices and they'll use pipe cleaners and a few other things. Yeah, so that one can be really good. 41 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:51,000 Kristen you got something else for us. Sure. I'm at the high school level we have a lot of English language learners and students who are more auditory learners or so they think. 42 00:05:51,000 --> 00:06:04,000 And so I have a reader incorporated my rules they read all the passages and questions out loud. They can stop and have everybody read them again, if they need to internally, but it's really nice for certain students to hear all the directions and passages 43 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:20,000 out loud for their processing skills, so the reader is one role and another one is ambassador which some people I guess call a spy is kind of cute, where if I'm really busy working with another team, the ambassador can use their role card to move to another team 44 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:26,000 and ask a quick question to see if they can get clarity before I come back over. 45 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:34,000 Oh, so in the case, so I'll just jump in here. So the spy. I like that. 46 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Or ambassador is basically somebody who can float to a different team. 47 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:53,000 Right, and talk with them. Okay. Sometimes you can actually, if you have large groups, like many teams you can say these three teams can spy on each other and those three teams can spy on each other and then they can use that student as 48 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:03,000 a, almost like a team stay but one stray so they can share data just like slightly differently than if you would on a computer or whiteboards. 49 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:12,000 Okay, okay. Yeah, that does, those sounds really interesting. It's interesting because for me and again I teach it at the college level. 50 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:23,000 I typically have my presenters, be the readers, as you indicate and then the ambassador or spy would be actually the reflector. 51 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:29,000 You know, so, so I will sort of incorporate some of those so this sounds interesting. 52 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:48,000 You know, the idea that we can utilize multiple people to do different things, and then come back and sort of put it all together I think is really an important aspect of working in teams. 53 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Now, the, the use of roles in the PO classroom is part of the, the PO in PO, the process oriented piece. 54 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,000 Some of the process skills that we're trying to help students develop come straight from using these roles. 55 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:15,000 So I was hoping you might briefly give your view on the value of using roles in the PO classroom, and what skills, the students develop. 56 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:26,000 I know you sort of touched on a few of these things, but like really what is the value of doing this in your classroom when you're like in the case of the three of us, we all teach chemistry. 57 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,000 So what's the value in doing this. 58 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,000 I am sadly aware that not all my students will become chemists, when they get older. 59 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:49,000 So, I use the idea of roles and using Pogals as a buy in for all of chemistry my whole class. So I say, you know, if you learn a small amount of chemistry that enhances your life. 60 00:08:49,000 --> 00:09:03,000 I'm happy. And if you learn a larger amount of chemistry that makes you want to be a chemist, I'm ecstatic, but I'm even just as happy if you leave my class, having a little bit more command of how you learn and command of how you interact with other 61 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:20,000 people, you're no matter what job you have you're most likely going to have to work with other people, and to improve your communication skills, your way of organizing information and coming up with critical thinking and problem solving skills I think that's super 62 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:32,000 important for any other thing especially chemistry, of course, but for anything from a carpenter to a data software engineer or something like that. 63 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:45,000 Yeah, I agree with Christmas you know she's saying most of her students will become chemists thing at the college level right so we have a lot of biologists and I have a lot of engineers and some nurses and you know this year I think I have three or four chemists in my 64 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,000 class on the static because I don't have that. 65 00:09:48,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Yeah, so yeah so thinking about all these other skills one of the things, kind of like communication that type of thing is, you know, we often think about metacognition that's one of the things we talked about in public and of course that's just really thinking and reflecting on one's own thinking 66 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:14,000 and how we learn and what one's knowledge is. And so I think having the role particularly of like reflector and then maybe couple a little bit with recorder can help students, you know, if they're not a chemist you know their engineer biologists 67 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:22,000 know what they're, they really know and what they don't know, because sometimes they'll just see it you know chemistry is that checkbox that's, make sure I get that class in so we can move on. 68 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:35,000 And so having those students sort of reflect on what as a team they're doing well maybe individually can help and oftentimes think a lot of people have reporters report so they have to fill out a little sheet at the end of the activity, and the reflector 69 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:45,000 helps the team sort of think through, what do we know what do we don't know and you know common practice would be to have like our what's the muddiest point for your team the most unclear point. 70 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:50,000 And so then the reflector helps them think through that and they can write something down. 71 00:10:50,000 --> 00:11:04,000 I sometimes have students rate the like a question or a statement on a Likert scale one to five you know like something along the lines of our team could easily solve a problem with the ideal gas law or something and so the five would be agree one would be disagree. 72 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:15,000 And so you can see that and sometimes you know you'll get a team and you'll even see that you're probably not doing so well but they're saying five we completely agree, but you can learn something there as well that they're really probably not thinking it through or maybe 73 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:24,000 the little self to self confident. I really like when those ratings when the students will give me like a 3.5 or a 4.5 because I just give 12345. 74 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:37,000 And so they're really thinking about or they've taken a poll and averaged it. And so that shows me they're sort of really thinking reflecting on how much they know and often when I hand those back I'll say I like your honesty here 4.5 or 75 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:42,000 right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean they just didn't circle five they went through it and so. 76 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:53,000 And then also sometimes an open comment I'll just say you know give me a comment I often say related to chemistry or cheesy or anything you know and they'll, I'll get jokes and all sorts of things but sometimes you know, I'll get a comment like really like 77 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:05,000 we're struggling with this or man we're really struggling with this and so I, I think you know it gives them a chance to pause and to think about what they do and don't know and you know maybe in a lecture they won't necessarily take that time or they won't have that 78 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,000 time built in to or maybe if it's an unstructured group they won't have that time built in. 79 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:30,000 And I mean it's really, really important to make sure that they get that five minutes at the end of class to do some reflection and and you know write some more things down on on you know whatever recorder sheet or whatever you're using to communicate 80 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:48,000 with. One of the things that I was reading about the summer. It had nothing to do with Pogel but somebody was said that you should really frame the end of the class when students are reporting back is not, you know, does anybody have any questions, but I basically 81 00:12:48,000 --> 00:13:05,000 say, ask me a question, you know, and that is now at the bottom of my recorder sheets, so it's basically, you know, and some of them is, you know, like, so how was your weekend, you know, but sometimes it's like they are really like asking a question that, you know, 82 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:18,000 it's very insightful of something that you know happened in the last 10 minutes, and it's great because I can use that to start the next class. 83 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:36,000 I will admit that early in my use of Pogel, I did not really understand the importance of roles and I found it very difficult to start using roles in the classroom. I was not someone who, who, like, sort of saw the value in it. 84 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:49,000 And so, what do you say to someone who has some trepidation about using roles and we would just like rather let the students, you know, sit down in a team and just work collaboratively. 85 00:13:49,000 --> 00:14:01,000 Yeah, I've really found that that teamwork, the teamwork part of it really does help sort of just to accelerate maybe is about can this catalyze that react that the reaction you're going to catalyze that interaction maybe of the students. 86 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:11,000 And, you know, I was reaching out to a couple of students, this summer you know known this Pogel podcast was coming out, and one of my students graduate school she said you know I love the roles. 87 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:24,000 She said because I didn't have to invest, you know, cognitive load and they're thinking about am I saying too much saying too little, who's going to speak and she said it really reduced my anxiety just having the role and knew it knowing her role in the group. 88 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:33,000 And so she really was thankful for that and I think honestly thankful because she's often talked, you know, we've emailed back and forth about the Pogel. 89 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:48,000 She doesn't call Pogel but that that type of learning that she had and it really helped her. And so I really think you know it does sort of help with that interaction but also particular times that it does help is like very beginning of the semester when 90 00:14:48,000 --> 00:15:00,000 you're introducing this or maybe have new teams, it gives them roles. And so I mean besides just normal daily that really just helps them be able to talk to one another without having really that awkward silence that is there. 91 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:13,000 If it's maybe an unstructured one. And so that can really help out and I know a couple of my students even said yeah you know that first week, those roles are great for getting us talking because I didn't know anybody else, you know as a relatively large class. 92 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Another way that's maybe not quite classroom based, you know traditional classroom basis I have some water testing I do with students they test water from local municipal source and I usually have four of them. 93 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:34,000 And I usually don't know each other and they can be biologists chemists and engineers. And so I just have assigned them started signing them roles the very first day and usually the most experienced person. 94 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:47,000 I just make them the manager and sometimes it's a carryover person, and then I'll give somebody the role of analysts and they really look at the binder for the procedure you know as pictures with it and other persons like a pipette or and a data recorder 95 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:59,000 and the other person's a pipette or and they communicate the results back to the water authority. And that really is really jumpstart because I didn't have that for a while you know it was that sort of, you know, should I fight that should you bite that, and man they jumped right in, 96 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:06,000 and they just started going with it and so. So that is really helped those folks and you know it doesn't take a time or two. 97 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:17,000 They really get going so I would just argue that, you know, it really just gets the students learning faster and really better straight from the get go. 98 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Yeah, I agree I went to a college in which our recitation one of my recitations was using Pogel, but I think the professor didn't understand how to really influence the roles we have rules but they weren't really tightly explained to us or enforce 99 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:50,000 in any way so going through that process and not knowing why we had a role just having a little piece of paper that said reader on it or whatever was didn't didn't sit well with me I loved the Pogel aspect but not the role so when I went into teaching. 100 00:16:50,000 --> 00:17:01,000 I did Pogel for many years without the roles and I knew we knew something was missing but I didn't know it was that because I just thought it was overly simple and maybe baby ish to have roles at first. 101 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:16,000 And I went to a Pogel facilitation track, and the facilitator can I name names Beth Mancini made us be in our roles. And I was like, oh my god, this is revolutionary. 102 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:34,000 And it was being in the shoes of a student and saying, This is my job for this group and this is how I'm going to be participating. Like Rodney said help my anxiety, help me make sure that I was involved in my group in the right the best capacity I could. 103 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:49,000 And immediately home was like I had to change everything about what I'm doing with Pogel so I figured out what roles work best for me to make it so it's easier for me to actually enforce them I decided how would I check if they're actually participating 104 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:55,000 in that way and I had like a little check marks and write their kids names down with a check mark sex to them. 105 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:07,000 I kind of had like laminate their role cards so they had it right in front of them with like a list of these are the duties of your role. And I can't say that it went particularly amazing the first time around. 106 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:21,000 I really had to think about how to entice the students into wanting to do it with like maybe a job listings activity that they talk about in there, or just kind of showing them how you know whatever job they're going to be going into. 107 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:28,000 And there are people with roles there is a manager where you're going to go they might not call it manager might call it principal in my case. 108 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:44,000 They have their roles and you need to know how to like check your boxes. And so they, the more I worked on listing my students the better it got and next thing you know within a couple of Pogel activities later, the kids were really working so I think the same 109 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:58,000 thing that I said it gives the students all something else to concentrate on that makes it so they feel more secure in class, and also a little less focus on how hard the chemistry is, I at least can get something done I can at least check off that we really 110 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:07,000 communicated today or we really tried in our problem solving today can feel accomplished, even if there's a small section of the chemistry that was difficult for me today. 111 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:25,000 And then the students who are not very good communicators. You kind of give them a role like ambassador or like a recorder and have them kind of shadow someone else who's a little more outgoing, and they blossom a little bit better than if you never had any roles. 112 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:46,000 So, so it sounds like you're kind of tuning what the students do what their role is going to be to sort of what their personality is. Am I right in that or do you do you rotate roles just like new class everybody you know moves one role, you know how 113 00:19:46,000 --> 00:20:00,000 does that work or honestly the beginning of the year it's just whatever right because I don't know the students and I just kind of have to really pay attention I don't think I do a polo activity right away for that reason I try to get to know who my students are. 114 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:16,000 And then yeah the beginning to make it a little bit more smooth transition. I do kind of tailor right the the outgoing students with the report out or manager position, and the more reluctant students with something that can actually manage that I think 115 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:28,000 they can manage or am I even ask them what do you think for the next next Poggle would make you feel most comfortable. And then like, maybe I have a meeting of people who are analysts last week. 116 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:42,000 And what what did you do when you're an analyst analyst last week sit over here, people who were reporters What did you do last week that made it go really well to kind of really foster them and then I started really shuffling them after a while it's just like, 117 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,000 you should be able to get any role and run with it. 118 00:20:46,000 --> 00:21:01,000 Right, as they get a little bit more familiar Rodney is this. Do you see the same sort of thing at college level or do you do it a little differently. Yeah, I tend to, you know, try to somewhat randomly pick I sometimes you know I thought I can, I used to sort of like 119 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 maybe try to pick someone you know to be a manager that I thought was really good. 120 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Sometimes I've done that but more recently last year or two, I sort of make it random like I'll say right the manager today is the person with the smallest phone, or you know that person who lives closest to a river, or the furthest from our campus, and to 121 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:28,000 try to make it somewhat random and to move it around to at least pick the manager based randomly and that manager sort of selects, you know, gives them a little bit of autonomy to work through there so. 122 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:42,000 Yeah, so I do I think a little bit more randomly. In that sense for most of my classes because I have either upper division classes which are smaller. And so I try to give them a little bit more flexibility and then I have somewhat larger classes and so I try not to be 123 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000 over prescriptive in those cases. 124 00:21:45,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Right, right. And I'll just throw out another idea for those who like the, this is what I do on the first day of the POCO classroom is, I will shuffle up a deck of cards and hand them out. All the aces are together, all the twos together all the threes, you know the spades 125 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,000 are the managers, the hearts of the recorders you know stuff like that and so. 126 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,000 But generally I tried to just rotate the roles around and, you know, 127 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:20,000 what I find is that it's, it's difficult to get students sometimes to buy in. 128 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:39,000 And, you know, because, like, as Kristen noted some students just, you know, they're not outgoing. I have some students who just are not good at keeping notes as the recorder, you know, and they worry about their own learning, they still feel like I have to get all of this 129 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:56,000 knowledge, you know, and I need to understand what's going on in class. So, how do you motivate the recalcitrant student you like, you know, do you like that, that word there I'm, I'm big on trying to use big words to the recalcitrant student who doesn't want to adopt a particular role, 130 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:05,000 like the student who just, you know, can't manage anything and just sort of lets the team go. 131 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:17,000 So, do you have any examples for workarounds, other than, you know, prescribing okay this is the manager of this team because I can't trust the rest of you to do it. 132 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,000 So, so I'm looking for help here from from the both of you. 133 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:37,000 I'll start I, the one the one role that I find more than maybe someone doesn't record well is, at least my classes is the presenter. And you know I either have upper level classes where maybe they, you know, you have a biology major taking my biochemistry and 134 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:47,000 maybe feel like you know they're not confident or in a 60 person class someone wanted to talk out and so I end up even though I like I signed the manager randomly, it seems like a lot of teams. 135 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:58,000 I find that it's the same presenter, you know, you might have. They may move around and sometimes maybe they even cheat maybe the manager presenter the same person because that person you know is really good at talking they're really confident. 136 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:07,000 And so some days I will start with all right in your teams first I want you to pick the presenter and the presenter has to be someone who hasn't presented in three classes or not much at all. 137 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:18,000 And then once you get that then you can choose some of the other roles because I really want to hear some different voices here you know instead of just having that one person. And so the that person. 138 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:27,000 Yeah, so that person can really be helped that sort of maybe quiet to maybe not talking or just by speaking out to the class and I think can help and their development. 139 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:40,000 And then one other time I had something similar was in one of the sort of research teams the lab teams, and I had one student he was a little bit older, and he wasn't so much a domineering kind of guy but he was just really a kind of a pleasant outgoing 140 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:52,000 sort of really hopeful and he really just want to do a great job and he would. I could just see that he would take over as manager, and I really wanted this other student who was more experience in the lab to sort of be the manager and so I just sort of 141 00:24:52,000 --> 00:25:01,000 pulled him aside and said all right, you're a great manager you've already had some experiences leading you know school clubs but this is what I want you to do with your role and you're going to be, you're going to help the manager. 142 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:14,000 And so I sort of put him in that so in that case I pulled somebody in a side, and that may or may not be possible in a larger class but you know if it's someone who's really stuck in one role maybe there's a way that you know maybe that one on one can happen 143 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:27,000 in this student he was really open to it so that went to the. So that went well. And then, um, sometimes I'll have the presenter or maybe maybe it's someone who always is the recorder and they don't want to be the presenter I'll have them go to the board 144 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:37,000 maybe I'll say all right, the recorder is going to go to the board today and you know everybody puts up one problem so I've tried to hit up on a few of those. 145 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:47,000 I also have issues with students who want to always present and other ones that never want to present and at the high school or even middle school level. 146 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:58,000 I think it's okay to give them kind of more sentence starters so that some students won't need it and other students can use them to you might say, all right, if you're having a hard time knowing what you're going to say later. 147 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:13,000 I'd like you to have this format right today you know for the question number three you can start with these three words in certain blank, and then and then these three words, something like that that would help them feel like they didn't crack the entire thing. 148 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And it just makes it a little bit easier to chunk it out for them so that they feel more comfortable and then they hear other people saying some of those same sentence starters and like oh okay they I think the right sentence starter for this question or whatever it is. 149 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:32,000 I think the best ones are my biggest issue is the people who don't want to speak out loud. 150 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:44,000 But, like I said, like, Ronnie was saying maybe you wait a couple weeks, and you let the people who like to present do it often enough that and say hey just you know eventually you're going to probably all present. 151 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:57,000 Maybe take some notes right listen to what these people are saying and make it a safe space for when you know it's going to happen at some point that somebody is I say something kind of wrong, even if they're confident, making a safe space for them to say something 152 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:05,000 wrong and discuss a great ways to give good feedback that's actionable but not me. 153 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:16,000 And that way when it's time for the collective students who speak, they know it's a okay place to make a mistake and also fall back on the fact that, well if you made that mistake, it's not just you. 154 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,000 It's your whole team. 155 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:24,000 You all read on it so it can't be that outlandish of an answer. 156 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:34,000 Right, right, right. I just jumped in for a second I really like, yeah what sure was saying there at the end about that safe space. And I really noticed this sometimes the teams and they don't want to say an answer and. 157 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:44,000 They really fear that they're going to have something wrong so they're almost frozen. And sometimes you know and sometimes I'll just say you know you really it's all right if you're wrong we don't always have to be right. 158 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:57,000 And that's why we're doing the teams because you know you're going to be able to see what other people's answers are that we have to compare. And it really I think once students get over that, then you know and especially if they're talking it out and I think it can 159 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:12,000 really help and especially if the teams tend to be a safe place and if you try to you know establish the roles and those types of things. I think it really can help the students be able to say a wrong answer to have a wrong calculation, and then to be able to fix it later. 160 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Yeah, how many times have scientists been wrong and we teach that for a reason, right, and how many times do scientists collaborate like this is all part of the bigger picture like we're working together just like scientists do we're wrong just like scientists are. 161 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:32,000 And we're, you know, trying, the whole point is that we're trying to learn something so failure is part of the learning. 162 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:40,000 Yeah, I mean absolutely I totally agree. My students are always afraid of being wrong. 163 00:28:40,000 --> 00:29:02,000 And, and they always want to make sure they leave the classroom with all of the answers correct. You guys found that too. And it's like, if you that the whole key there is is review your results after class, come back with questions because you're probably 164 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:16,000 going to get some, or better yet, check in with the rest of your team. You know, either between classes, you know between we meet when we meet next time or at the beginning so it's it's. 165 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:33,000 The reflection piece is probably one of the harder things for. I'm sure particularly at the high school level but you know you even at the college the students don't come in, you know, reflecting on what they're learning, and I think that, again, working in 166 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:46,000 a team but like you said Chris I think it's a great thing giving them a safe space where they can sort of add something to it by, by picking a role. 167 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:58,000 You know, and I guess, you know, at the end of this I think the key is, and I'm going to go back to something that Rodney said earlier about, you know, the students come back to us. 168 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:11,000 You know, years later and say you know I really appreciate what you were doing I really like Rodney I like your comment about how the student really appreciated the roles that they were given, you know, and that sort of helped them. 169 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:18,000 Do you have any other anecdotes that would convince the listener that roles are really important. 170 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:33,000 I could say that until I figured out how to use roles, I don't know. I felt like the Poggle activities were going over like a big light brick. They're getting the point across they're learning some things but it wasn't exciting for the my students, 171 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:48,000 and then with getting their roles and getting that buy in and those process skills and explaining why we're doing it this way and being more transparent with the students. I'm at the point where if I say if they see the role cards coming out because my role cards are bright 172 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:57,000 like bright red and bright orange. They like cheer, like excited, or they come in the class and they're like we're doing a Poggle today. 173 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:07,000 We're kind of random is not like every presentation that we're doing Poggle and I'm like actually we are like yeah because they find it more of a healthy challenge. Right. 174 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:15,000 Yeah, I had one student in an organic class and he was one of the engineers and I think it was it was an end of course evaluation my pressure I knew who it was. 175 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:25,000 But he said you know he said I really organic chemistry is really tough he said but man, and I did it and I do it mostly on Wednesdays and organic chemistry said but every Wednesday he said I knew what was happening. 176 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:34,000 He said we could get through it, and I would really get that knowledge because I was able to talk it out with friends, and that type of thing you know again going through this sort of structured role. 177 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:45,000 And so I think it you know was able to give him that not every student likes it and some people I know even the semester there, I can sort of tell but some of their comments and the reflectors reports that you know like it's not explained well enough 178 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:57,000 as if they're not understanding because you know I didn't give a great lecture you know because they have to sort of solve it. But nonetheless I mean, I think working in the in the groups can really be helpful and I think there's a good bit of sort of positive peer 179 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:10,000 pressure and team behavior that can really result as a part of that because you know they don't necessarily want to be able to give up you know and if maybe if there was unstructured they can maybe one person could set back but perhaps and be lazy maybe let the smart 180 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:19,000 person get it but because they have these roles and they're, they need to make sure that they're sort of working together. And I've often found like the recorder and the presenter. 181 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:26,000 They oftentimes can be really close because the reporters you know they got to write down the official team answer, and then the presenters got to say it. 182 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:36,000 And, and sometimes that you know that they have to work together because they know the presenter doesn't want to look bad. And so he's asking the recorder and the other members to make sure that he or she has it. 183 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:47,000 And that's the correct answer. And just the other day in fact I was, I was pushing some people to why they have this answer. And I remember these two guys and the one was the presenter and I've looked over and they is a sort of like two officials nodding each other 184 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:55,000 that he's all right, this is why we think it you know and they were making they were conferring really quickly before they gave their answer and it was the correct answer. 185 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:06,000 And I, I really, I really think some of that you know the sort of positive peer pressure students aren't being as lazy as they might otherwise you know they wouldn't want if they wouldn't have a role. 186 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:22,000 And then also just the roles, you know, I think really helps more learning take place during a given hour because those hours fly by my students talk about that all the time, you know, we have active learning, but it really helps more things take place learning wise during 187 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,000 the day. Right. Right. Absolutely. 188 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:46,000 Well, you know, I want to thank both of you for taking time to share your experience within the POGLE classroom and how we can use roles, not dinner rolls Wayne, but active, active learning roles and active 189 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:55,000 process skill based roles in in the POGLE classroom. Thanks very much guys really appreciate it. Thanks. 190 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,000 Thank you. 191 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,000 Back to you, Wayne. 192 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:05,000 Okay, thanks Alex and thanks Kristen and Ronnie for just a great discussion. 193 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:16,000 As we've said before, in this season, we want this to be the beginning of the discussion so if you're on Facebook if you're a member of the Facebook practitioners group. 194 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:24,000 You can follow hashtag the POGLE podcast, you can do this for any of our episodes, but particularly for this episode. 195 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:39,000 We want you to, to make your comments known about what you do with roles how they've affected your teaching, how you use them in your classroom so we're looking forward to a lot of rich discussion on Facebook. 196 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:58,000 And adjusting to the POGLE podcast episode three of season three we will be back very soon with episode four. Goodbye everybody.