1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Welcome to season two of the POGLE podcast. I'm Matt Targa, producer of the 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,320 POGLE podcast for the POGLE Project. POGLE stands for Process-Oriented Guided 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,640 Inquiry Learning, a student-centered approach that guides students in 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,640 constructing their own understanding of content and helps them develop important 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,960 skills such as teamwork, communication, critical thinking, and problem-solving. 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,160 The POGLE podcast is an ongoing conversation from the POGLE Project 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,760 that celebrates innovative educators both in and out of the classroom. We have a 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,760 handful of special episodes to share with you over the next several months in 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:41,840 2022. Today we bring into focus POGLE's upcoming climate justice symposium that 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:48,240 will take place in June of 2022. POGLE practitioner Dr. Kristen Plessel, interim 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,040 associate vice chancellor for academic affairs at the University of Wisconsin 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:58,280 Whitewater, interviews Dr. Deb L. Morrison of the University of Washington. Dr. 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,600 Morrison will be one of the main presenters at the upcoming climate 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:06,200 justice symposium. She works at the intersection of justice, climate science, 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,280 and learning. She is a climate and anti-oppression activist, scientist, 16 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:17,080 learning scientist, educator, mother, locally elected official, and many other 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,880 things besides. Deb works in research practice policy partnerships from 18 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,520 local community to international scales. She works to iteratively understand 19 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,080 complex socio-ecological systems through design-based and action-oriented 20 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,040 research while at the same time seeking to improve human environment 21 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,480 relationships and sustainability. She draws on an eclectic range of justice 22 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,880 theory to inform her work in the world and to foster her continued journey for 23 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,920 transformative liberation. More information about Dr. Morrison's work can 24 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:56,200 be found at www.DebMorrison.me. Kristen and Deb, thanks for being here today and 25 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,880 Kristen, I will now pass the baton over to you. Hello everyone, I am Kristen Plessel 26 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,560 from the POGLE project and here with Deb Morrison. Deb and I have been part of a 27 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,000 group who've been crafting the POGLE climate justice symposium along with 28 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,120 Shannon Wojtowski, Carol Fish, Heather Price, and Sonia Remington-Dusette. Deb, 29 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:21,280 I'm so glad you could join us here today. Can you please just first introduce 30 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:26,120 yourselves? Who is Deb Morrison and why might I want to be talking to her? Yeah, 31 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,720 it's great to be here, thank you. So I'm actually Deb L. Morrison. There's two 32 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,680 Deb Morsons working in the area of climate justice. There's a Deb K. 33 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,280 Morrison as well. And I'm a learning scientist at the University of 34 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,840 Washington and I work broadly in research practice policy collaborations 35 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,280 across the nation and across the world. I'm here today actually on West Saanich 36 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,520 territory on Pender Island, British Columbia. I live in Canada and work 37 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,240 remotely for the last five years. So yeah, I have my fingers in all sorts of 38 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,920 different collaborations with state science supervisors, with First Nations, 39 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:05,080 tribal nations, with different organizations, justice-focused 40 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,760 organizations. And can you tell us a little bit about what is climate justice? 41 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,960 You know, I threw this out, the Pogel Climate Justice Symposium, but what does 42 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,600 that term mean? It's different than some of the other things we want to talk 43 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,040 about. Yeah, when we think about climate change education, there's a lot of 44 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,480 different language that's floating around. We hear climate science, climate 45 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,600 change, global warming, and more recently especially we've heard a lot more about 46 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,680 climate justice. Climate justice has a lot of different meanings depending on 47 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:42,840 what context you're working in. And it stems from really deep long-term work in 48 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,960 histories in communities of color and tribal communities around environmental 49 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:53,320 justice. Way back, but it was sort of formalized around 1992 with the 50 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,720 principles of environmental justice. And then in the early 2000s, I want to say 51 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:03,320 2002, internationally they created the 27 principles of climate justice. And they 52 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,000 drew on the American environmental justice principles. And so those are 53 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,920 called the Bali climate justice principles because they were created in 54 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:17,520 Bali, Indonesia. And they really help us think about, you know, who's at the 55 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:22,920 table defining what is an issue of justice? What form of justice are we 56 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,000 talking about? Are we talking about racial, economic, gender justice, 57 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,600 intergenerational justice? And so it really is contextual to like what the 58 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,120 specific problem we're dealing with is. And I think the commonality is trying to 59 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,720 understand as we work and as we think and as we understand problems of climate 60 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,680 change, how do we understand their disproportionate impacts and solutions 61 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,920 that are being generated from different communities that may need to be 62 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,240 considered in really critical ways? 63 00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:00,200 I'm thinking about the Pogol communities classrooms. I think climate change and 64 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,320 global warming are more common and understood terms. So how is climate 65 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,360 justice different than those concepts? And why might we want to think about 66 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:10,520 them? 67 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,760 Yeah, we know that there's also educational justice. So we know from work 68 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:22,960 in educational justice that to really engage the interests and foster strong 69 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:29,280 scientific identities for youth, we actually need to tie into who youth are 70 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:35,600 and the lived experiences they have. And that has to do with justice. So if 71 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,800 you're a young girl in a chemistry class, if you're a young person of color in a 72 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:47,400 physics class, like those are things that are not as common as we'd like to be in 73 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,840 terms of like how we're fostering positive roles into the future, we still 74 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:56,840 have gender inequity, we still have racial inequity in science careers in 75 00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:02,480 those spaces. And so what we really want to do is we want to ensure that what 76 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:09,640 we're teaching, and how we're teaching it is tying to those youth. And for youth 77 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,680 that are more normative, and the classic is of course, the young white boy, 78 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,680 right. But the there's other ways that you might be more sort of centered in a 79 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,560 classroom. For those that are more normative, we also want them to 80 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:27,520 experience differences that really reflect the world in front of them so 81 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,640 that they're better to be collaborators to be innovators in their fields. And so 82 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:39,040 it might look like something like if you're studying water chemistry, for 83 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:44,160 instance, say you're doing a POGO lab that's looking at water chemistry, that 84 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,320 you're actually trying to understand, okay, well, who is experiencing water 85 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:55,040 chemistry problems in your community? You know, where are those experiences 86 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,880 coming from? Who's not as impacted by it? And why is that? And that brings in 87 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:04,400 these socio scientific aspects. Troy Souther talks a lot about that. So 88 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,480 socio scientific issues as being a really important way of engaging youth. 89 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,440 And so that's really what we're getting at with climate justice in the 90 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:18,560 classroom, is thinking about as we understand different issues of like for 91 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,760 one of the earth system science ones around water is around timing of water, 92 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,520 you know, how much water there is and when. And that type of like timing of 93 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,000 water is really differentially impacts those in socio economic situations, 94 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,440 different socio economic situations, because like maybe you have flood 95 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,720 insurance, maybe you don't, maybe you live in a place that's really heavily 96 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,240 impacted. And then your drinking water is contaminated when it floods. And so 97 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,760 there's a lot of different sort of intersectional issues of justice that we 98 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,920 see in the world, and it makes our science much more meaningful when we 99 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,600 study in the context of real world issues. 100 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,960 So if I'm thinking about why I should engage in climate justice work, it's 101 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:06,840 going to give my students a better understanding of how the science impacts 102 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:12,000 the world around them. And I could see students become much more engaged in 103 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,480 the science I'm trying to get them to understand, because they understand how 104 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,880 it could really impact different people in within my community. 105 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,680 Absolutely. And even more so you can start exploring like the solutions, the 106 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,720 different cultures and different communities are finding to these issues. 107 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,840 There's really great work done by a National Geographic Explorer in the 108 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,640 slums of Egypt, where the innovations that were going on for sanitation for 109 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,320 it was all chemistry, it was related to sanitation and water, clean water, which 110 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,920 is it was essentially absent, there was no infrastructure in these slums. And 111 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:56,440 the local people living there had figured out how to do it. And it was 112 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,840 amazing. And then a National Geographic Explorer went there and studied how 113 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:06,720 these folks are living in these spaces, and developed a set of small sort of 114 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,200 mobile equipment based on the technology that they were using is really 115 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,720 low, and simple technologies, but like, great adaptive technologies for the 116 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,680 situation. And those things are now used in refugee camps all over the place, 117 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:25,280 because they're mobile, and they're adaptive for that environment. And so 118 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,480 sometimes the solutions that we're looking for, for our real world problems 119 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:36,200 are found in the real world applications, science and spaces, and you have to be 120 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,280 able to work and see and learn from people in all different contexts to 121 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:41,000 understand that. 122 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,800 And getting our students students engaged at that early stage in 123 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:51,600 absolutely out of the box solutions. So in our very politicized world right now, 124 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,720 as a chemistry instructor, it's just kind of a controversial topic to be engaged 125 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,160 in Europe bringing in you've mentioned somewhat scary words like political and 126 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,160 society that we don't always engage in in the science community. What advice 127 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,760 would you give to someone who's interested in the topic, but maybe 128 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,200 reluctant to engage with their students on this topic? 129 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,440 It's funny that you say those two words, especially because I so I've been 130 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,720 working at the Institute of Science and Math education for five or six years 131 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:28,960 now, and six years, I guess. And one of the very first so I'm an editor on the 132 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,560 STEM teaching tools, which helps science, technology, engineering, 133 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:37,520 mathematics teachers address issues that are like coming up in practice. And one 134 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,960 of the very first STEM teaching tools I wrote was how to address controversy in 135 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:47,680 the classroom, because we I was teaching it a lot in sort of high school biology 136 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:52,720 context where evolution was coming up a lot. But I also, you know, work on a lot 137 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,720 in climate change. And so you could see all of the controversies that we're 138 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,520 hitting. So that tool is more general, not just climate change specific, but it 139 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,320 provides and I think I'll find that I think it's number 44. And so I would 140 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,640 actually suggest that folks dig into those types of resources because 141 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,080 they're really made to help teachers like find the resources they need to be 142 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,120 able to address issues of controversy. The political one, we have hit that in 143 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,640 our Washington State climate science education collaborative. So I'm working 144 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:28,280 on the leadership team across it's called climb time. And there are lots of 145 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,720 resources available for folks teaching climate change that are starting to 146 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:38,080 populate that space. So it's climb time.org. But we wrote a STEM teaching 147 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,720 tool called navigating the political dimensions of climate change teaching 148 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:48,960 and learning. Just recently, it just came out, it's number 78. And it really 149 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:55,080 helps people address issues of quote unquote, politics in the classroom. And I 150 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,800 say that with sort of air quotes, because climate change is not a 151 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:06,160 controversial topic amongst scientists, it's a socially controversial topic. And 152 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:12,360 so what teachers tend to hit is they tend to hit parents who are or 153 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,840 community members or administrators sometimes who are worried about having 154 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,440 some kind of social conflict related to what's being taught in the classroom. 155 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:26,080 And that's real in many places in the country. Like it's a it's a visceral 156 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,760 real challenge, right. And so what teachers need to do in those spaces is 157 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,000 you don't need to hold on to the words climate change to teach climate change, 158 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:40,320 right? You can engage in things that are climate change adjacent, you know, like 159 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,560 regenerative agricultural practices, like, you know, alternative 160 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:50,480 transportation pathways, and those types of ideas to explore and get get 161 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,040 students involved with. They're open to you, you just have to use the language 162 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:00,200 and address the issues that are local to you. And those issues that are important 163 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:07,320 to local communities are not going to be as full of conflict as straight on saying 164 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,280 I'm going to teach climate justice in my classroom, right? You are teaching it, 165 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,600 you're just not naming it that way. And while I like to be very explicit in the 166 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,800 work that I do is there's a reality that exists for many in the country that they 167 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,920 have to just, you know, work a little bit sideways from the language that we 168 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,600 currently have, because the language to stir up a lot of the political rhetoric. 169 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,360 I think the one other thing I would say on that is, as you engage in those local 170 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:39,960 topics, it's really important we walk this line as teachers sometimes between 171 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:45,960 indoctrination and inquiry. And we need to really stay on the inquiry side of 172 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:53,400 that line. So while I may have particular political opinions, I am a trusted adult 173 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,560 in a teaching setting, and my political opinion should not be what I'm telling 174 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:02,600 my class. But what I do what I am responsible for in terms of climate 175 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:08,000 justice, as I am responsible to get kids to inquire into data that's in the world, 176 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,600 get them to see and explore data, the inferences they make from that data 177 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,920 should be logical and rational, like based on the scientific sort of principles 178 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:23,400 of inference. But I shouldn't necessarily say that's right or wrong. I should just 179 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,160 say that the process by which students are getting to that is right or wrong. And 180 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,920 that's one of the ways to also address controversy and politics in the 181 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,520 classroom is you're not teaching politics, you're teaching the practices 182 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,080 that students need to engage in civic inquiry properly. 183 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,680 And I think that's really comforting, because there are tools, you know, you 184 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,440 mentioned there are tools available to us at our fingertips already. And when I 185 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,320 think about the POGO facilitator, an experienced POGO facilitator already 186 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:59,320 focuses on the process and is working with their students on inquiry. We're just 187 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,840 putting it in a real world context, where we do have to consider other things 188 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,800 besides just the science of the situation. 189 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,480 POGO is really well suited, like the POGO sort of frame of teaching is really 190 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,600 well suited to this because it is about inquiry. And it's about how we expand the 191 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,360 data sets that we might have students look at. So maybe they look at chemistry 192 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,760 data, and they look at socioeconomic data, and they look at those together to 193 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,240 think about a particular problem. 194 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,160 So one last final question I want to wrap up with, what is the most rewarding 195 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,840 thing that you have experienced with engaging in climate justice work? 196 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,680 So one of the things while it may seem scary to enter this space, one of the 197 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:49,440 most rewarding things is that students love it. They get so excited about 198 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,400 understanding how the things that they're learning in school matter to 199 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,440 their families and their communities matter to the world. Youth are engaged 200 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:05,000 in climate change, in climate justice work. They're way more connected than 201 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,960 adults. Social media and all different things. And understanding that as an 202 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,880 educator is very critical if you're really going to engage students deeply 203 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,080 in classroom learning, or not necessarily just class and getting them 204 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:24,040 outside too, you know, and school based learning. And so I think that is 205 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:30,080 potentially one of the most exciting things. And for me personally, I work in 206 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,640 a lot of issues of how do we actually support people who are very in 207 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,600 normalized positions. So people who have a lot of power or privilege, how do we 208 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,320 support them in understanding issues of climate justice? And that's also 209 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:51,240 extremely exciting, is to see youth who think that they understand the world 210 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,760 start to question and like explore more deeply, and then really become humble 211 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,480 learners about the world and about society. And that's going to help us in 212 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,280 the long run. That's going to be what really helps to foster a lot of climate 213 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,000 justice is people who are in privilege, not just understanding their privilege, 214 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:13,680 but deeply understanding, like their role in society and their responsibility to 215 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:14,360 community. 216 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,600 So thank you for all the work that you've done in this area and you continue to do 217 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:25,320 in this area. You're a wonderful leader. I invite everyone to look out for 218 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:31,640 information for the Pogal Climate Justice Symposium coming in 2022, where 219 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,560 you can come and learn some more from Deb and create a project of your own. 220 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,520 Thank you so much, Deb. It was really great talking to you today. 221 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:40,560 Thank you. 222 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,760 Thanks to all of you for listening to today's conversation on the Pogal 223 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,280 podcast. For additional details on how you can engage with the Pogal project 224 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:54,080 or its working groups, contact Associate Director Marcy Dubrov at 225 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:03,120 marcy.dubrav at pogal.org. That's marcy.dubroff at pogal.org. 226 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:08,360 The Pogal Project is a 501c3 nonprofit organization. If you would like to make 227 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:12,840 a donation so we can keep providing podcasts, low-cost workshops, and 228 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:19,640 classroom materials, please visit www.pogal.org. Backslash donate. 229 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,480 Intro and outro music of our podcast is produced by Pogal practitioner, Wayne 230 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,680 Pearson. Please join us next time when we feature another special episode of the 231 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Pogal podcast this season. A cross collaborative episode where co-host 232 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,200 Dr. Alex Groucho of Rider University interviews Dr. Brad Moser of Hamilton 233 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,920 College and host the podcast, Physics Alive. Until then, enjoy your week.