1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Music 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Music 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Music 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Music 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,000 Music 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:37,760 Welcome everyone to episode one of season four of the Pogal podcast. 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,480 This is Wayne Pearson back in the producer's chair for another season of podcast. 8 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:46,240 This time around we are talking about teaching. 9 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,840 We're having conversations with teachers from inside and outside of the Pogal project about 10 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,480 topics of interest to our teaching community. 11 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,200 Today's host is Alex Guichao. 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,200 Hello, Alex. 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,120 Hey Wayne, how you doing? 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:00,120 I'm doing fine. 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,760 What are we talking about today? 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,000 Well, we are going to be talking about teaching. 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:13,440 We're going to be talking to two Pogal practitioners from the same family, but two very different 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:14,440 settings. 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,080 So with me I have Laura Parmentier. 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,160 Laura, can you introduce yourself? 21 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,160 Tell us what you do and where you're from. 22 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,200 Hi, thanks, Alex. 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:29,000 I teach organic chemistry at Beloit College. 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,080 I've been there since 1991. 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Okay. 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,800 And also joining us is Laura's daughter, Maddie Blaine. 27 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,600 Maddie, can you tell us a little bit about what you do? 28 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:41,600 Hi. 29 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:42,600 Yeah. 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:50,160 I am a sixth grade social studies teacher at a pretty small middle school in Wisconsin. 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,160 Pretty different. 32 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:57,000 Well, thank you both for joining me here for the Pogal podcast. 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:03,800 So both educators, both interested in using Pogal, right? 34 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,160 Otherwise you wouldn't be here. 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:13,280 But as you introduce yourself, it's two clearly different settings, two different subjects. 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:20,720 However, I do understand that you guys talk to each other quite a bit about teaching Pogal. 37 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,840 And we'll sort of get into that as we get along. 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,520 But I want to get started with how you were introduced to Pogal. 39 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:34,240 Laura, since you've been doing this a little bit longer, we're going to start with you. 40 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,240 How were you introduced to Pogal? 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,680 Can you give us a little bit of a backstory there? 42 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:38,680 Sure. 43 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Yeah. 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,120 And my backstory is a little bit backward. 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:51,080 Well, as I said, I've been teaching at Beloit since 1991 during those early 1990s. 46 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Lots of folks around the country in chemistry were interested in education reforms. 47 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:05,520 And so I was very actively involved in a chemical education reform initiative that was headquartered 48 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,140 at Beloit College. 49 00:03:07,140 --> 00:03:12,020 And that was the ChemLinks coalition that developed in the 1990s. 50 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:18,480 So this was another student-first guided inquiry learning project. 51 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:27,160 And so when I took over teaching organic chemistry in the early 2000s, I wanted to continue with 52 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,920 the student-first guided inquiry learning sorts of things we had been doing at Beloit 53 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:34,680 for the general chemistry courses. 54 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:44,760 And so I got connected with Andres Dramanis, who was in the process of publishing his guided 55 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,120 inquiry organic chemistry book. 56 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,880 This wasn't the Pogal project yet. 57 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,480 So this was pre-Pogal. 58 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,400 His work was in manuscript form. 59 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:59,960 And I agreed to, and I was very interested in classroom testing his materials. 60 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:05,440 So I classroom tested those materials and worked with Andres for a couple of years. 61 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:14,080 And then the Pogal project became, especially the Pogal project, got Dennis funding, et 62 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:15,080 cetera. 63 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:22,480 And so I started using Pogal materials in my classroom seven, eight, nine years before 64 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,240 I had attended a Pogal workshop. 65 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:25,560 Yeah, that sounds familiar. 66 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,520 I have a very similar... 67 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:28,520 Right. 68 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,920 So in kind of through the back door. 69 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:31,920 Right. 70 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:32,920 Yeah. 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,560 Although mine was in physical chemistry, different group of people, but yeah, same sort of thing. 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:45,760 So Maddie, I'm sure you were not instructed in Pogal in organic chemistry at any point. 73 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,520 Tell us about your introduction to Pogal. 74 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:50,880 Be honest here. 75 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:59,800 I like to joke that I had a Pogal to learn how to tie my shoes, like that's how I learned 76 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:00,800 everything as a kid. 77 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,520 It's not actually true, but that would be kind of fun. 78 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:09,240 I think it's like the kind of thing I've really heard the word a lot. 79 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,840 And I was like, oh, that's just something mom does, Pogal, whatever that is. 80 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:21,560 And then I think I must've been a year or two into teaching and I actually asked, like, 81 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,240 okay, what is POGlL? 82 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,240 What does that mean? 83 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:31,840 And it turns out that the whole idea of guided inquiry, this student centered education, 84 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:38,680 like really fit with the pre-teacher education that I was doing at the time or had just finished 85 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:45,120 my first couple of years of teaching, it's like, oh, this is a really nice method of 86 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:51,280 doing kind of what I had been learning to do through my pre-service education. 87 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:58,920 So basically, you had already gone through college, you'd learned a whole lot of material, 88 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:04,280 you were taking teacher preparation courses, and then you went back and sort of said, oh, 89 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:06,600 my mom's been doing this for a while now. 90 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,880 That kind of... 91 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:09,880 Yeah. 92 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:10,880 Okay. 93 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,840 And so, Laura, you talked about how you came by the activities you use. 94 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:18,200 Maddie, you're teaching sixth grade history. 95 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:19,200 What do you got? 96 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,040 Where does this stuff come from? 97 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,640 I make it all. 98 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:28,760 I did a writer's workshop, gosh, a couple of years ago and wrote my first one. 99 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,920 I took an activity that I was doing with kids and turned it into a Pogal activity. 100 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,840 And now I've got a couple more, but I've created all of them and I run them past my mom for 101 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:43,720 approval and past the kids. 102 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:50,060 So you at least have some ability to get some feedback on your stuff, even though the disciplines 103 00:06:50,060 --> 00:06:51,060 are very different. 104 00:06:51,060 --> 00:06:54,080 And I'm just going to ask a quick question here. 105 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,920 Even though the disciplines are different, do you each feel like you can look at an activity 106 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,120 in the other discipline and sort of see where there's Pogal? 107 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,920 I mean, Laura, as Maddie was feeding you some of this stuff, was it like, I have no idea 108 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,200 or does this sort of look like it? 109 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:20,160 Well, Maddie and I typically talk more about process than about content. 110 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:33,080 And so where I am pretty weak on ancient Mesopotamia, I'm pretty okay on concept development. 111 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:42,200 And the process skills that students engage in to do the sorts of really creative things 112 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:43,200 that Maddie does. 113 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,200 All right. 114 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:50,680 So I mean, that's cool because even though the disciplines are different, there's the 115 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:56,000 ability to converse and sort of share ideas and talk about this. 116 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:03,160 So that's very interesting and cool to hear. 117 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,960 So Laura, you have this full set of organic activities. 118 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:13,600 I mean, is this how you teach all through the entire year? 119 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,640 This is what your students get, right? 120 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:16,640 Pretty much. 121 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,200 Yeah, pretty much. 122 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,520 And we've been doing this at Beloit for a long time. 123 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,040 And so there's that history. 124 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,200 So students coming into the course know that this is how the course works. 125 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,160 We've got a workbook. 126 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,480 I don't necessarily take things in order of the workbook. 127 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,400 I don't necessarily do all the things that are... 128 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:40,400 Right. 129 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:41,400 Yeah. 130 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,360 But that's the expectation and that's what students expect to do. 131 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:47,360 Right. 132 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,800 And you have other colleagues who use Poggle at Beloit as well, or is it this is just the 133 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,320 way organic is done? 134 00:08:53,320 --> 00:09:01,840 Well, so we still teach our general chemistry course the way we developed this first guided 135 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,280 inquiry course many decades ago. 136 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:11,000 I have worked with many of my other colleagues at Beloit. 137 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,800 So we have introduced Poggle activities in the biochemistry curriculum, in the inorganic 138 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:23,280 chemistry curriculum, the activities in development, and in the physical chemistry curriculum. 139 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:29,000 So, yes, we're working on becoming... 140 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,920 Yeah, Poggle kind of all around. 141 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,840 But you have buy-in from colleagues. 142 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:33,840 Yes. 143 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:34,960 And that's huge. 144 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:35,960 That is huge. 145 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:45,160 So Maddie, tell us a little bit about how often Poggle gets used and what your colleagues, 146 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:52,600 peers, and even, I mean, at a middle school you have to answer to administrators. 147 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,080 What's that environment like? 148 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:01,720 I'm really lucky where I work that I have a ton of professional freedom. 149 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,640 I get to design my course how I want it to be for the most part. 150 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,160 I don't have a set curriculum where I have to do all these things, which is really nice 151 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,360 and it allows me to be really creative. 152 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:21,400 And because the sixth grade social studies department is two people, me and a colleague, 153 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:29,400 we kind of have a lot of freedom there and we do lots of stuff. 154 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:39,240 I do maybe one official Poggle activity early in our units that really is very foundational, 155 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:44,160 a very foundational piece of content or skill. 156 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:52,520 But a lot of what I do, I would classify as off-brand Poggle. 157 00:10:52,520 --> 00:11:01,000 So it's inquiry, it's very skill-focused, it's very student-centered, but it's not necessarily 158 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,560 the full cycle in an activity every time. 159 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:05,560 Right. 160 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:12,560 I mean, do you get students to do the using roles and working in teams and filling out 161 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:19,200 stuff like that or you think as much as one can do with sixth grade students? 162 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,400 Yes. 163 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:27,200 It's a particular challenge to get group work going effectively. 164 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,880 And it's October of this year, we're not quite there yet. 165 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:38,180 By later in the year, the kids are a lot better at working in small teams. 166 00:11:38,180 --> 00:11:41,320 But I start out with partners. 167 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,760 We're not the groups of four, but we're working in partners. 168 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:45,760 And how do you work in partners? 169 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:46,760 And what does that mean? 170 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,520 And what does that look like? 171 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,760 And kind of build from there. 172 00:11:50,760 --> 00:12:00,160 So definitely working on building the process skills piece of it is probably, requires a 173 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,520 little bit more effort. 174 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:07,280 Laura, so given the environment that you have, I mean, how to process skills, do you have 175 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:08,680 any difficulties? 176 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,960 Because I get pushback from my students a lot when I try. 177 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:24,200 I'm teaching college students, but there's not a lot of Poggle going on around me. 178 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,640 And having pretty much full departmental buy-in. 179 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:35,760 So at Beloit, the chemistry department, but our biologists are engaging in student-centered 180 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,760 work, our geologists are engaging in student-centered work, our physicists are. 181 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:46,080 So sciences at Beloit over the decades have, yeah. 182 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,960 And so that's changed over time. 183 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:56,120 When we first started doing this stuff, Alex, and our undergraduate TAs had not done the 184 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,900 course the way we were now doing the course. 185 00:12:58,900 --> 00:12:59,900 That was difficult. 186 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:00,900 Right? 187 00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:06,120 And we didn't have those upper-class student, if we didn't have that upper-class student 188 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,960 buy-in, that made it harder in the class. 189 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,720 But at this point, this is what you do in sciences at Beloit. 190 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:19,760 You work in teams, those teams change sometimes. 191 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,240 The instructor chooses the teams mostly. 192 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,640 And so, and I can assign roles. 193 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,800 I don't always do all four roles all the time. 194 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,560 I always assign a facilitator. 195 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,720 I use different means to pick who that is. 196 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:44,440 And the facilitator's primary job is read out loud or choose someone else in the team 197 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:51,920 to read out loud so that somebody is doing something to move the project along. 198 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,800 Maddie tells a really interesting story that illustrates a great difference between my 199 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:05,700 teams who, they're young adults, 19, 20, 21 years old typically, will work together even 200 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:09,160 if they don't necessarily like each other. 201 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:14,320 Where Maddie tells a story about maybe someone will pick up and throw a table if they don't 202 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,320 like one another. 203 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:21,840 So teamwork is different between adults in college and maybe a lot of people. 204 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,560 You're nodding your head here. 205 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,240 You've had furniture thrown in your classroom? 206 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:34,400 That might be a bit extreme, but the teams, I put a lot, like when I have to make groups 207 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,120 for things, I put a lot of thought into it. 208 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,560 Certain kids working with certain kids, certain kids can't work with certain kids. 209 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:49,880 And I need somebody who is a strong reader in the group to help out the kids who maybe 210 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,480 can't really read yet or don't yet speak English and things like that. 211 00:14:54,480 --> 00:15:02,240 So it's definitely a more in-depth process of making groups, even partners can be tough. 212 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,400 I think you said this earlier, you don't really jump into a lot of this until you get to know 213 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:16,360 the students and figure out who is going to be able to work together and in what kinds 214 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:23,640 of different environment, in what setting, how do I put this group together and what 215 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,040 can I expect out of each of the students? 216 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,800 I would agree with Laura. 217 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:37,360 I see that sometimes and I will sometimes purposefully reorganize teams, but definitely 218 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,400 don't have to worry about it nearly as much as you're making. 219 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:47,720 And I guess, again, it's maturity of the students, so these are things that you have to think 220 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:48,720 about. 221 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,560 So it's not like you can jump in on this day one and say, okay, class, this is what we're 222 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,120 going to do. 223 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:00,400 So you had said that basically the history is you and one other colleague, do you need 224 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,800 to worry about what administrators are thinking about this or do you get any pushback from 225 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:06,800 parents? 226 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,840 Because as college professors, your mother and I don't really worry about what parents 227 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:11,840 think. 228 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,600 Not at all. 229 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:15,600 Not at all. 230 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,360 And we have deans and other administrators who protect us from them, but you maybe do 231 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:21,720 not. 232 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,360 Has that played a factor for you in what you've had to do? 233 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,220 Not directly. 234 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:35,760 There have been other social studies educators who teach the same content, who've had more, 235 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:42,080 I don't know, tension or conflict with community members or parents. 236 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:48,020 I'm pretty careful about how I go about anything that might be, say, controversial. 237 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:53,920 So that is something that I have to be really careful with in a public school. 238 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:59,240 In terms of methodology, it seems to be going okay. 239 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,120 Kids seem to enjoy class and that makes parents enjoy it. 240 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:04,120 Right. 241 00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:08,440 So as long as the kids come home and say, we did something fun today in school and I 242 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,640 might have learned something. 243 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,480 Exactly. 244 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,680 You haven't had any real negative issues there. 245 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,960 So we had alluded earlier that the two of you talk because, Maddie, you haven't moved 246 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,880 too far from home. 247 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,560 And I understand that there's a special time of day where the two of you talk about Poggle 248 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,720 together when you're out doing what? 249 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,600 What do you guys do? 250 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:38,600 Walking the dogs. 251 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,600 Walking the dogs. 252 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:52,320 So let us in a little bit on some of the conversations that you guys carry out when you're out walking 253 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,840 the dogs. 254 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:04,880 You had mentioned earlier, Laura, that a lot of what you worry about mostly is facilitation. 255 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,240 And so tell us a little bit of something about the interactions that you guys talk about 256 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,840 during those. 257 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:13,920 Yeah. 258 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:23,320 So first off, imagine beautiful southern Wisconsin, rolling countryside, prairie, either a long 259 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,500 leash or a dog's off leash and having a fabulous time. 260 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:35,260 And we can walk for miles and just engage in great conversations. 261 00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:38,280 So we talk a lot about facilitation. 262 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:45,680 We talk about, this happened to me in class on Wednesday. 263 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:52,520 What would you have done in this particular situation? 264 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,680 How might I have handled this differently? 265 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,080 And those are typically facilitation things, right? 266 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,680 About team dynamics. 267 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:11,360 If there's somebody whose voice maybe isn't being heard in the team, how do I sort this 268 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,240 out? 269 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:21,200 How do I bring out the strengths, the assets of this particular person if that's not happening 270 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,960 right now? 271 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:33,800 I have gained a lot of insights from talking with Maddie because she's a trained educator. 272 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:40,600 And I got my PhD in organic chemistry back in the 1980s. 273 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:47,280 And at that time, empathy didn't really figure into the equation for being an educator. 274 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,360 We were not taught how to teach in graduate school. 275 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:51,360 No. 276 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:57,760 And so I've learned a lot over the decades and I've learned a whole lot more on our wonderful 277 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:04,680 dog walking mornings, just talking through with someone who is not only trained but is 278 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:12,280 very insightful about what might make this situation better. 279 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:13,280 Right. 280 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:14,280 Right. 281 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:21,840 So, Maddie, now that your mother has painted you in these glowing turn, can you give us 282 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,440 one or two nuggets of things that you guys have talked about, something that really like 283 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:32,800 this is really cool and I'm going to go use this? 284 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,840 It's funny to hear my mom say that she learned a lot from me as a trained educator because 285 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:44,680 so many times at school, I think, oh gosh, I just really sounded like my mom. 286 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,880 My teacher voice sounds like my mom. 287 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,480 That's a good thing. 288 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,480 It's a good thing. 289 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,080 But it's just kind of funny that that's kind of come in full circle. 290 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,680 Some notable conversations. 291 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:03,400 We've talked, I think, a lot about one thing we talked about recently was kind of chemistry 292 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,920 as a second language. 293 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:12,480 I have an ESL teaching license as well and I have a lot of kids in our district are English 294 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:19,160 learners and so it's something I think about a lot and love making the parallel between 295 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:24,800 chemistry as a second language and using some of the strategies for teaching English to 296 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,000 teach the language of chemistry. 297 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,040 That's been kind of a fun one. 298 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,720 I agree with that wholeheartedly because as a physical chemist, I find organic chemistry 299 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,720 is a completely foreign language. 300 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,440 Don't ask me to do organic nomenclature. 301 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:48,320 No, and that's not the most interesting part of organic chemistry by a long shot, but Maddie 302 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,080 is absolutely right. 303 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,600 I've learned so much thinking about, there are even books about organic chemistry as 304 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,600 a second language. 305 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:03,940 This is not the first time, but thinking about my teaching of organic chemistry and comparing 306 00:22:03,940 --> 00:22:11,800 that with Maddie's teaching of English language learners, it's like the parallels are tremendous. 307 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:19,520 It's not only the new vocabulary that we need to talk about these concepts, but you have 308 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,040 to have this foundation to be able to delve into the concepts. 309 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:33,800 So peeling back some of those layers and understanding what students, and also I have students for 310 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,160 whom English is not their first language. 311 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,500 So there's this multiple level thing. 312 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:43,960 That's been a huge insight in my teaching. 313 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Right, right. 314 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:46,960 Cool. 315 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:54,400 And so you're both talking about having students for whom English is not primary language. 316 00:22:54,400 --> 00:23:03,420 So I imagine accessibility, not just being able to figure out how to facilitate an activity 317 00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:11,160 with students, but also making sure that, I think Maddie, you alluded to this too, who 318 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,920 can actually read the activity out loud? 319 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:21,760 What are some of the other issues in accessibility that you guys have talked about? 320 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,360 Anything jump to mind there? 321 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:33,520 I think the parallel between vocabulary and anything in chemistry, because it's all crazy 322 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,880 vocabulary to me, but I think that's really big. 323 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:45,400 And the way that we use the sort of concept development arc is similar to how kids effectively 324 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,400 learn new English words, that that meaning has to be there. 325 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,100 You can't just know the word. 326 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,960 You have to also make the meaning behind it. 327 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,920 It needs some context. 328 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:05,000 And so I think one of the things that's always fascinating to me, I teach a survey course. 329 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,480 So it's basically the G part of a GOB, general organic biochem course. 330 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,660 And I've got students in there for whom they really don't want to be in chemistry. 331 00:24:14,660 --> 00:24:20,700 But they're there and they're talking about stuff that they don't really sort of see it 332 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:26,580 at all, but when they're talking about it with one another, there's this connection 333 00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:28,680 that they draw. 334 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:34,640 And then if you put the term on top of that afterwards, both of you, just so people at 335 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,480 home know, they're both nodding on Zoom, I'm saying this. 336 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,760 So do you see that also with the English language learners as well? 337 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:45,760 Yeah. 338 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:46,760 Yes. 339 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,200 And that's sometimes the best way to learn new words. 340 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,160 You already know what this is. 341 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,400 Here's a word for it. 342 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,040 And they may know it in their own mother language. 343 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,480 Cool. 344 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,440 Very interesting stuff. 345 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,440 So I guess one last thing that I want to ask about here, and that is the process skill 346 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,560 issue. 347 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:24,840 How do you get through the process skill piece to students at that sixth grade level? 348 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:31,840 While you start slow in the year, do you feel like at the end of the academic year, they've 349 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,760 figured out how to really work with one another? 350 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,360 Is that a... 351 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:40,800 Definitely it improves. 352 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:47,200 The way we have our course set up, we end with a really big group project. 353 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:54,120 And that it's super rewarding to see the effort and the group work and the cooperation that 354 00:25:54,120 --> 00:26:01,400 goes into that big project that would not be possible in September, October. 355 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,560 And that I think it always reminds me like, oh yeah, all those times where I have to stop 356 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,640 and be like, okay, what does it look like when you're working well with a partner? 357 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:18,120 All those times we have to be so explicit about expectations and what good group work looks 358 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:19,120 like. 359 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,560 Like it finally pays off in June when they do their big project. 360 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:29,840 And do the students realize that they've grown? 361 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,000 They're 11 years old. 362 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:42,320 So their self-awareness might not be where it is for a college-age student. 363 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,400 So I wanted to swing this back to you, Laura. 364 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,720 Do you see students... 365 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:56,740 Again, since they're working in teams a lot, do they come in already with this ability 366 00:26:56,740 --> 00:27:04,720 to do things or do you feel like they're still growing in their process skills as they move 367 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,240 through organic chemistry? 368 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,160 Oh, well, they're always still growing. 369 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,400 I mean, it's a whole developmental arc. 370 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:20,480 I think one of the key differences maybe for my students in organic chemistry at their 371 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:28,360 developmental stage relative to Maddie's students is that organic chemistry students are going 372 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:33,160 to go on and look for internships or they're ultimately going to apply to medical school 373 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,720 or graduate school or apply to a job. 374 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:43,160 And they understand it when I tell them, when I remind them that it's the process skills 375 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:48,320 that I will focus on in their letters of recommendation. 376 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,720 Can they communicate effectively about science? 377 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,840 Can they work collaboratively in teams? 378 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:53,840 Do they... 379 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,040 Those are all of the check boxes that are asked on every evaluation. 380 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,960 Every single evaluation. 381 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:14,000 And so college students are likely pretty motivated by that sort of idea, whereas I 382 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:19,240 think for middle school students, they're not thinking about that yet. 383 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:26,200 And so yes, I see development over the course of two years, or one year, two semesters of 384 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,120 organic chemistry. 385 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:35,560 And I love to be able to talk about that development in letters of recommendation. 386 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,600 Well, this has been really interesting. 387 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,480 I really appreciate the both of you coming onto the podcast, chatting with me. 388 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,520 I almost wish I was a dog person and I lived in Southern Wisconsin to go out on a walk 389 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,040 with you guys, but neither of those are the case. 390 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,520 So I appreciate the time that you have spent with us here. 391 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,040 Yeah. 392 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,320 So any last words that you guys have? 393 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:11,240 I mean, something else, some one other nugget that you want to give to other people. 394 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:18,480 I think having somebody to talk about teaching in general, whether it's specifically Pogel 395 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,000 or anything, is just the most valuable. 396 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400 And I can talk to my colleagues at work. 397 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,760 We share the same students, the same age, but it's kind of nice to talk to somebody 398 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:37,560 who is in a completely different realm, have a different perspective on things. 399 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,600 And I found that super valuable. 400 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:46,040 And I can ask, when we're talking about preparing kids for the next level, I can ask my mom, 401 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,640 what do you want out of kids when they're coming into a college class? 402 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,520 So I can actually speak to that when we're preparing kids. 403 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:05,880 And I will add that the Pogel community is great for fostering conversations amongst 404 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:11,280 practitioners of people who teach different subjects at different levels. 405 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,880 And that's, I think, super valuable. 406 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:25,400 I love our Saturday and Sunday morning dog walks because we can dive pretty deeply into 407 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,280 things that we're facing today. 408 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,080 What am I going to do with this next week? 409 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,680 And so I just find that super, super valuable. 410 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:41,920 And I'd love to be able to foster that kind of level of conversation more broadly. 411 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:42,920 Yeah, absolutely. 412 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:49,840 I mean, like you, Laura, I've been doing this kind of teaching for decades now. 413 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,480 I shudder to say that, but true. 414 00:30:53,480 --> 00:31:01,600 And I still find that even when I'm facilitating a workshop, just from questions from new people, 415 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,080 it's like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. 416 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,840 Let's talk about this. 417 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:14,160 And I mean, you two are very lucky that you've been able to carry on conversations. 418 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,200 I'm sure that there's every now and again an emergency phone call, quick, we need to 419 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,520 go walk the dogs. 420 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,600 That's the new code word among Poggle people. 421 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,400 We need to go walk the dogs. 422 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,960 And I'm sure that people in the Poggle office would agree that that is a good idea. 423 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,440 All right. 424 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:38,040 Maddie Blaine and Laura Parmentier, I want to thank you both for a really engaging conversation. 425 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,080 What a way to kick off season four of the Poggle podcast. 426 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,960 Thank you very much. 427 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,040 Thanks so very much. 428 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,320 And back to you, Wayne. 429 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,160 So what a fantastic conversation. 430 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:55,120 One of the things that I get to do while these conversations are going on is just be a fly 431 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,120 on the wall. 432 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,640 And I get to hear everything that gets said. 433 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:04,440 And there are two insights that occurred to me as this conversation was going. 434 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:12,200 One, I'll echo Laura, is how great the Poggle community is for bringing people together 435 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,640 from very diverse environments to talk about what we love to do. 436 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,100 And that's teaching. 437 00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:24,040 And whether it's at an NCAP, a national meeting, whether it's in a workshop, whether it's at 438 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:30,640 social hour, we always find a way to talk about these things, even though we're coming 439 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,800 from very diverse environments. 440 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:39,160 And we may not be all in the same genetic family, but it's a great thing to have. 441 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,000 And the other thing that occurred to me is that when a lot of people think about Poggle, 442 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,800 I think about something that's very set up and very rigid, but I don't really think that's 443 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:49,800 true. 444 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:55,120 I think that if you work with Poggle, you can make Poggle work for you and you adapt 445 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,480 it to your environment. 446 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,400 So I think the conversation today just is a clear example of that. 447 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,960 So I want to thank everybody for listening. 448 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,080 We'll be back in about another month with another Poggle podcast. 449 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:32,360 So long, everybody.