WEBVTT 00:00:09.120 --> 00:00:12.720 Welcome to Northern Latitudes. I'm Bill Alt. 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.519 Today my guest is Carrie -Anne McGoughan, a primatologist 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:20.820 and author of Sisters of the Jungle, the trailblazing 00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:23.199 women who shaped the study of wild primates. 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:26.019 Carrie -Anne's book weaves together the stories 00:00:26.019 --> 00:00:28.539 of seven extraordinary scientists including Jane 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:33.039 Goodall, Diane Fossey, and Barute Galdikas, women 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.299 who transformed our understanding of primates 00:00:35.299 --> 00:00:38.280 and in the process, redefined what it means to 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:47.560 be a woman in science. Welcome to Northern Latitudes, 00:00:47.740 --> 00:00:50.500 Carrie Anne. Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.320 To begin, I'd like to focus a little bit on Jane 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.420 Goodall, who recently passed away. And it was 00:00:56.420 --> 00:00:58.840 an inspiration to many of these primatologists, 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:02.020 including yourself, I'm sure. In Sisters of the 00:01:02.020 --> 00:01:04.420 Jungle, you place her at the centre of the sisterhood. 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.719 Does her recent passing change the way you think 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:10.640 about her work or how you portrayed her in the 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:14.280 book? I think the answer is yes, in the sense 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.920 that it almost makes the whole... like writing 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.459 a chapter about her even more powerful than before. 00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:23.959 So she had always been an influence for me like 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:26.239 since the very start. Like I remember going to 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:29.540 see her speak as an undergraduate in Calgary 00:01:29.540 --> 00:01:31.739 with my mom with me. And we kind of like wide 00:01:31.739 --> 00:01:34.920 eyed watching this amazing force. And I've since 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.959 seen her speak many times after that, but. It 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:41.159 wasn't until I wrote this book that I really 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:44.980 delved into her life and fully understood exactly 00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:48.840 what she accomplished, which is incredible. Just 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.519 learning that she didn't just fly to Africa, 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:57.549 she took a steamer ship. 14 ,000 kilometers from 00:01:57.549 --> 00:02:01.430 her home in the UK to Africa as a 22 -year -old. 00:02:03.109 --> 00:02:06.569 And she talks about really relishing her time 00:02:06.569 --> 00:02:08.530 on that ship when most of the other passengers 00:02:08.530 --> 00:02:11.530 were probably seasick and not really enjoying 00:02:11.530 --> 00:02:16.069 the excursion. But she traveled this distance. 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.740 to live out her dream and she'd had this like 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:22.699 passion for animals like she had several stories 00:02:22.699 --> 00:02:25.120 kind of cropped up where she you know found some 00:02:25.259 --> 00:02:28.300 some worms in the garden and produced them proudly 00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:32.199 to hide them under her pillow. And her mother 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:35.379 discovered them. And her mother, instead of kind 00:02:35.379 --> 00:02:37.219 of shutting her down and saying, you gross, you 00:02:37.219 --> 00:02:39.060 found some disgusting worms from the garden, 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.099 she like took them back out into the wild and 00:02:42.099 --> 00:02:45.120 used it as like a learning opportunity and a 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:49.139 shared love of nature. She spent hours in her 00:02:49.139 --> 00:02:52.039 family's chicken coop just so she could watch 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:56.610 what It was like to see a hen lay an egg. So 00:02:56.610 --> 00:02:59.729 she spent that time doing that and then ultimately 00:02:59.729 --> 00:03:03.430 went to Africa, had the gumption there to introduce 00:03:03.430 --> 00:03:05.949 herself to this famous archaeologist named Louis 00:03:05.949 --> 00:03:09.729 Leakey, who of course we know is who ended up 00:03:09.729 --> 00:03:12.530 sponsoring her to go and study the chimpanzees 00:03:12.530 --> 00:03:14.750 in Gombe. But again, she was 22 years old. I 00:03:14.750 --> 00:03:17.590 don't think I would have had the guts to do that 00:03:17.590 --> 00:03:20.530 when I was 22. So it was just incredible to read 00:03:20.530 --> 00:03:23.139 about all of her experiences. and really just 00:03:23.139 --> 00:03:26.639 made me admire her even more. So when she passed, 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.860 I felt kind of lucky in a way that I was able 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:33.060 to do all of that research and knew all of that. 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:36.719 When she did pass, it made it much more powerful. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.800 Do you think there's anything misunderstood or 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:47.520 underappreciated about her work? I think... Just 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.280 I think it maybe is you kind of forget now that 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.539 in terms of like just how amazing the discoveries 00:03:53.539 --> 00:03:58.000 that she made were Because she was really the 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.080 first to go to the wild To study the chimpanzees 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.599 in the long term like there had been a few researchers 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:08.370 before her, but nobody, you know spent as much 00:04:08.370 --> 00:04:12.490 time and as like close up time and got to know 00:04:12.490 --> 00:04:16.329 these primates on an individual basis as well. 00:04:16.629 --> 00:04:19.870 And then the stuff that she found out during 00:04:19.870 --> 00:04:23.350 her field seasons in Gombe, like she was the 00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:27.069 first to see that chimpanzees made and used tools, 00:04:27.290 --> 00:04:31.589 which is an incredibly powerful discovery because 00:04:31.589 --> 00:04:34.250 before that, it was thought that humans were 00:04:34.250 --> 00:04:37.970 the only primate capable of that. So she really 00:04:37.970 --> 00:04:42.269 just shattered an entire perception, I guess, 00:04:42.310 --> 00:04:45.889 of the animal kingdom. And then not only that, 00:04:45.970 --> 00:04:49.970 then she navigated multiple discoveries, but 00:04:49.970 --> 00:04:55.319 she ultimately switched and pivoted to... conservation 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.980 and primate conservation for chimpanzees specifically 00:04:58.980 --> 00:05:02.860 but then broadened it you know basically globally 00:05:02.860 --> 00:05:09.480 and has inspired you know like millions of adults 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.680 and children with her Roots and Chutes program 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.480 and has made a huge conservation impact just 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.660 even beyond just her work with the chimpanzees 00:05:18.660 --> 00:05:21.860 in Gombe and so it's really incredible like she's 00:05:21.860 --> 00:05:26.800 just one you know unassuming woman, but she's 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.220 made some incredible waves, not just for primatologists, 00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:34.019 but just also for the entire planet. And that 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:37.040 can be said about almost every woman that you 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:40.920 portray in this book. I mean, some amazing stories, 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.680 like just incredible stuff. And I was wondering, 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:47.120 because you've done fieldwork yourself in Belize 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:51.199 and Madagascar with Howlers and lemurs, right? 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.079 Yeah, you never know what the bills research 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:58.740 Did you when you were writing the book did you 00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:01.459 see yourself in some of these experiences because 00:06:01.459 --> 00:06:05.680 I mean, I'm sure some of them kind of cross Yeah, 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.970 I think Absolutely. It was hard not to kind of 00:06:09.970 --> 00:06:13.370 picture Jane or some of the others as I was sitting 00:06:13.370 --> 00:06:16.850 there in the wilds of either Belize or Madagascar 00:06:16.850 --> 00:06:20.889 kind of navigating. I remember, I guess, one 00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:24.420 kind of interesting parallel. When I first was 00:06:24.420 --> 00:06:26.980 studying howler monkeys in Belize, I would, you 00:06:26.980 --> 00:06:28.540 know, you had to find the monkeys. That was one 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:31.519 of the main jobs is you had to go out every day, 00:06:31.779 --> 00:06:34.339 find the groups, you know, mark their locations 00:06:34.339 --> 00:06:36.899 with a GPS. And then if you're taking any behavioral 00:06:36.899 --> 00:06:41.680 samples, do that. And that was one of the hardest 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.160 parts of kind of getting my feet wet as a primatologist 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:49.339 was learning how to find the monkeys or the lemurs, 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:53.540 because they're not always easy to find. The 00:06:53.540 --> 00:06:56.180 species I was studying was black. It was pretty 00:06:56.180 --> 00:06:58.339 small black howler monkeys and they could be 00:06:58.339 --> 00:07:00.399 up in the tree and you'd walk right past them 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.459 and we wouldn't even know it. There were times 00:07:02.459 --> 00:07:04.699 when we were studying them and they were up there 00:07:04.699 --> 00:07:06.459 and we knew they were up there but we couldn't 00:07:06.459 --> 00:07:09.259 see them well enough to take any behavioral samples. 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:13.379 I know, like after all the research that I did, 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:15.480 that that was a challenge for many of the women 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.160 in the book was finding the primates. So Jane 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.560 talks about it, like Brute Galdikas writes about 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:27.279 how difficult her field site was in Borneo. You 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:31.519 know, I think even like Jean Altman and the others 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:35.220 all had similar challenges. So that was, that 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:38.779 definitely resonated as I was writing about it 00:07:38.779 --> 00:07:41.730 for sure. You open the book with a question, 00:07:41.829 --> 00:07:44.810 why is primatology one of the few sciences dominated 00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:47.509 by women? If it's not the only one, I'm hard 00:07:47.509 --> 00:07:49.490 pressed to think of another one that's dominated 00:07:49.490 --> 00:07:55.029 as much as primatology is. The answer in your 00:07:55.029 --> 00:07:59.410 book is, well, it's there, I think, but it's 00:07:59.410 --> 00:08:02.529 not quite what I think most people would expect. 00:08:03.029 --> 00:08:07.040 So what do you think the answer is? Yeah, so 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.360 this was perhaps, for the reader, it's not as 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.300 cut and dry as, and I think that was what I learned. 00:08:14.139 --> 00:08:16.480 So, you know, as I started off, I had listed 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.779 a number of different hypotheses, too, that one 00:08:18.779 --> 00:08:20.980 of the primatologists I write about, Linda Fedigan, 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.680 had kind of come up with from a scientific perspective. 00:08:24.740 --> 00:08:27.040 And so she had floated a number of different 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:31.639 hypotheses about why it might be And then as 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:33.700 I started writing, I wanted to see if I could 00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:36.039 get the answer through the stories of the women. 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.100 So what could I learn about their lives and their 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:40.519 trajectories that would tell me information about 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:43.419 how they kind of got on this path to the primates? 00:08:43.899 --> 00:08:46.960 And I think what I learned is that everybody's 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.299 path was different, which shouldn't be a surprise. 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.700 You know, everybody had like, if you look at 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:56.080 just the vast differences, like Jean Altman, 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.940 for instance, she... She studied baboons in Kenya, 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:04.159 and she had gone on to kind of create these methods 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:06.539 that we still use today to study the behavior 00:09:06.539 --> 00:09:09.240 of primates, and she had a background in mathematics. 00:09:10.059 --> 00:09:12.299 But if you compared her, say, to Jane, so Jean 00:09:12.299 --> 00:09:14.559 Altman talks about how her parents are New Yorkers, 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.799 and they're, you know, born and bred, and they 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:19.139 were kind of allergic to the outdoors, and she'd 00:09:19.139 --> 00:09:21.379 only camped, you know, once or twice when she 00:09:21.379 --> 00:09:24.740 was in Girl Scouts. Compare that to Jane, of 00:09:24.740 --> 00:09:27.679 course, who was, you know, passionate about nature 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:30.799 and the outdoors, putting worms underneath her 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.679 pillow. You couldn't get to more different stories. 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:38.059 And then, of course, I have my own life to kind 00:09:38.059 --> 00:09:40.220 of trace, which is sort of a blend, I think, 00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:42.679 kind of in between those two, where I did grow 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:46.899 up a little bit in nature camping, but not as 00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:49.559 maybe ambitious as Jane was, maybe a bit allergic 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:52.480 to the outdoors when I was younger. So I think 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.379 there's shades. within each of the stories. And 00:09:56.379 --> 00:09:58.860 so I think what I came to the conclusion, because 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:01.539 I'm a scientist too, so I want to have a conclusion. 00:10:02.299 --> 00:10:05.860 So my conclusion was that maybe it wasn't, maybe 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:08.320 I didn't ask the right question. Maybe understanding 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.279 why there are so many women in primatology isn't 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:15.059 the question. Maybe it's more how they influenced 00:10:15.059 --> 00:10:18.120 this field and how they influenced our understanding 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.360 of the primates and of ourselves is perhaps the 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:26.090 more important question. You talk about all these 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:28.529 women and you talk about Louis Leakey in particular 00:10:28.529 --> 00:10:31.710 as one of the ones that probably was a huge influence 00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:34.789 He called them the trimates right good old Fossey 00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:39.990 and Galdikas, did I say that right? Galdikas, 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:43.830 I'll get it Do you think there's somebody else 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:49.029 or do you think it was Part of it was a production 00:10:49.029 --> 00:10:53.549 or a produce of the times um as more it became 00:10:53.549 --> 00:10:56.870 more and more accessible education higher education 00:10:56.870 --> 00:10:58.990 for women was that part of it as well through 00:10:58.990 --> 00:11:02.009 the early times yeah i think absolutely it was 00:11:02.009 --> 00:11:05.769 accessibility um so gene altman who i just talked 00:11:05.769 --> 00:11:09.690 about she um writes about having her experience 00:11:09.690 --> 00:11:12.429 as like starting off as an undergrad and kind 00:11:12.429 --> 00:11:16.909 of mathematics and how she was one of three other 00:11:16.909 --> 00:11:21.879 women in her uh class all of the men had advisors 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:24.899 assigned to them. And none of the women, they 00:11:24.899 --> 00:11:27.259 were told they didn't need advisors. So this 00:11:27.259 --> 00:11:30.360 was kind of the mindset of the day. And even 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.740 like for Jane Goodall and Diane Fossey and Brut 00:11:33.740 --> 00:11:36.539 de Galdakas, they were all kind of, it was not. 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.100 typical, or really, people didn't really approve 00:11:41.100 --> 00:11:45.360 of sending a woman out into the wild to study 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.179 primates by themselves. So like Jane, she was 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:50.419 told she had to bring a chaperone. She ended 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:53.519 up bringing her mother. Verde Galdecas brought 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:57.940 her then husband with her. And so there was these 00:11:57.940 --> 00:12:03.399 kind of notions that existed. when it came to 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:08.960 science and women's involvement in it. So yeah, 00:12:09.059 --> 00:12:11.860 so part of the reason why Jane Barute and Diane 00:12:11.860 --> 00:12:14.960 could go and do this was because they had Louis 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.000 Leakey in their court kind of being their champion 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.940 to also find them funding through National Geographic, 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:26.639 which he did, but also he had to... more than 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.139 once, kind of advocate for them to say, look, 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:32.340 this is the person we need to send, and here's 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:34.720 why, and here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.580 send her mom with her as the solution, for instance. 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.970 And that happened. when you're looking at another 00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:46.149 of the women in the book, Sarah Herdy. So she 00:12:46.149 --> 00:12:50.029 was famous for studying langurs in India, and 00:12:50.029 --> 00:12:56.909 she also made a hypothesis about infanticide 00:12:56.909 --> 00:13:00.149 in the monkeys. But she writes about and talks 00:13:00.149 --> 00:13:03.549 about kind of a dearth of female role models 00:13:03.549 --> 00:13:06.830 when she was at Harvard. She was one of the only 00:13:06.830 --> 00:13:11.409 women in her cohort. advisor's first female graduate 00:13:11.409 --> 00:13:15.110 student. So she always talked about kind of the 00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:18.029 search for a female role model in academia, which 00:13:18.029 --> 00:13:22.769 ended up being harder than she had hoped. Yeah, 00:13:22.769 --> 00:13:24.690 when your mom found out about chaperones, she 00:13:24.690 --> 00:13:26.330 wasn't so impressed because she thought she could 00:13:26.330 --> 00:13:28.330 have gone to the jungle with you, correct? Yeah, 00:13:28.429 --> 00:13:31.090 absolutely. She figured she could be the cook 00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:36.929 there, yeah. These women, they're icons, all 00:13:36.929 --> 00:13:41.309 of them. but they're human and they've got some 00:13:41.309 --> 00:13:43.309 flaws and some controversies following them. 00:13:43.809 --> 00:13:46.590 How did you work? I mean, I know how you worked 00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:49.429 it in because I've read the book. But how, as 00:13:49.429 --> 00:13:53.090 an author, did you look at that? Because there's 00:13:53.090 --> 00:13:57.570 well, they almost all of them had some kind of 00:13:57.570 --> 00:13:59.730 controversy about what they were doing, whether 00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:01.549 it was presenting for the first time and the 00:14:01.549 --> 00:14:03.990 information being rebutted by the, you know, 00:14:04.090 --> 00:14:08.039 male dominated. conference or whatever, or some 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:11.179 of the other ones where Fossey comes to mind 00:14:11.179 --> 00:14:13.559 right away, of course, because she was very adamant, 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:16.759 very militant, I guess, for lack of a better 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:21.399 word about her approach to protecting the animals, 00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:26.200 the primates. How did you go about that as a 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:32.360 writer? Yeah, so that was definitely a hard balance 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:37.159 because obviously I admire these women to a great 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.659 extent. They're all role models for me personally. 00:14:40.779 --> 00:14:42.960 So I felt, and I'm telling their stories, it's 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.480 their lives. It's not my life, right? I'm interspersing 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.860 some things from my life within, but I'm telling 00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:51.440 their stories. So I wanted to be very careful 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:55.840 about how I did that. Um, so I was very, very 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.980 much felt the weight of it on my shoulders. And 00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:02.480 the truth is like they, none of them are, you 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.500 know, one dimensional, right? As you would probably 00:15:05.500 --> 00:15:09.200 expect, like all humans have multiple like facets 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.539 to them. There's shades of gray. It's not just 00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:14.600 black and white. And you learn that pretty quickly. 00:15:14.860 --> 00:15:17.240 Um, so you mentioned Diane Fossey, obviously 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:20.299 that one was a very complicated story to tell. 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:23.240 Um, and I'd known some of it, you know, we, you 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.320 hear rumblings and not just like she had the 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.740 movie gorillas in the mist about her, but then 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:30.960 in the primatology community, you know, we all 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.639 kind of knew about her and she had kind of a 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:38.600 bit of an infamous reputation. But as I kind 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:40.620 of read it about her, you know, gathered all 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.860 the research, it quickly became apparent that 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:47.200 it wasn't so cut and dry. Like there, you know, 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.799 she took... what she called an active conservation, 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:53.639 which, as you mentioned, involves some pretty 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.460 questionable ethics, I think, to her studies, 00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.879 especially with communities that were working 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.700 near the gorillas. She is said to have kidnapped 00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:07.519 a local child. She would capture poachers that 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:09.639 are suspected poachers and kind of intimidate 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.080 them using their cultural values, putting on 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:16.159 Halloween masks and such. So obviously not how 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.259 we would approach it today. Um, and she, but 00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:22.100 she, it was, as I read about her, I could see 00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:26.580 where she was coming from. Um, and that's what 00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:31.000 I tried to hopefully bring through, um, in, when 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.500 I told these stories is that she, for better 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:37.000 or for worse, you know, She was brought to it 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.960 because she was so passionate about these gorillas 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.179 who she called, you know, in some instances she 00:16:42.179 --> 00:16:45.379 referred to them as her friends. So it was very 00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:49.480 clear that she had this deep love for this animal 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.159 and essentially nothing would kind of get in 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:54.279 her way to try to protect them. She was also 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:58.200 entering into the, you know, the area at a time 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:02.240 when there was only 260 individual mountain gorillas 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:05.200 left in the whole world. So that was obviously 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.759 another piece of it. She probably felt like it 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:12.430 was life or death. and in a way it was. And so 00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:14.829 you could kind of understand what would bring 00:17:14.829 --> 00:17:17.009 her to do the things. I'm not saying she should 00:17:17.009 --> 00:17:19.250 have done any of those things, certainly not. 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:22.029 And like I said, that's not how we would approach 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:23.950 conservation today. We would take a much more 00:17:23.950 --> 00:17:27.289 community -centered approach when we work on 00:17:27.289 --> 00:17:30.369 primate conservation. But yeah, I tried to kind 00:17:30.369 --> 00:17:32.230 of bring all those different layers because I 00:17:32.230 --> 00:17:34.609 think that is also another important piece of 00:17:34.609 --> 00:17:36.369 the puzzle when you're trying to understand how 00:17:36.369 --> 00:17:39.309 each of them went along their path to the primate. 00:17:39.309 --> 00:17:44.329 and what they achieved along the way. Many, if 00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:47.210 not all, of these scientists have evolved from 00:17:47.210 --> 00:17:50.009 scientists to advocates through their career, 00:17:50.369 --> 00:17:53.809 and they fight for the animals and the ecosystems 00:17:53.809 --> 00:17:58.190 they're studying. And how do you see the balance 00:17:58.190 --> 00:18:01.730 between that today, like the objectivity of the 00:18:01.730 --> 00:18:06.849 studying and then the activism as well? I think 00:18:06.849 --> 00:18:11.410 it's almost, you cannot really avoid it now because 00:18:11.410 --> 00:18:16.109 most primates are endangered. There's 500 different 00:18:16.109 --> 00:18:19.410 species of primates world over and most of them 00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:22.890 are threatened with extinction. Like I studied 00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:26.029 lemurs in Madagascar for instance, they're like... 00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:28.430 case in point, there's more than a hundred different 00:18:28.430 --> 00:18:31.930 species only found in Madagascar and they're 00:18:31.930 --> 00:18:34.150 considered the most endangered group of mammals 00:18:34.150 --> 00:18:38.410 on the planet. And so when you're a primate researcher, 00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:42.650 especially now, you can't really avoid doing 00:18:42.650 --> 00:18:44.589 conservation because how can you study something? 00:18:44.990 --> 00:18:47.869 that doesn't exist, which is obviously super 00:18:47.869 --> 00:18:50.349 tragic. But you also see kind of the role that 00:18:50.349 --> 00:18:52.349 they play in the larger ecosystem. And I think 00:18:52.349 --> 00:18:54.990 that's what each of these women came to eventually, 00:18:54.990 --> 00:18:57.609 right? Like they might have started off going 00:18:57.609 --> 00:18:59.930 to just study their behavior, but as they got 00:18:59.930 --> 00:19:01.829 there, they're confronted almost immediately 00:19:01.829 --> 00:19:04.809 with the realities. Like if you look at Brute 00:19:04.809 --> 00:19:07.549 Galdakas going to Borneo to study orangutans, 00:19:08.190 --> 00:19:11.809 she had the most training of the three women 00:19:11.809 --> 00:19:15.670 that Leakey sponsored. But so she had a scientific 00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:19.089 background from the UCLA and she traveled to 00:19:19.089 --> 00:19:21.950 Borneo But as soon as she got there, you know, 00:19:21.970 --> 00:19:25.430 she discovered that you know orangutan Are often 00:19:25.430 --> 00:19:28.369 taken as pets, right? So she almost immediately 00:19:28.369 --> 00:19:33.170 found that and then basically She probably felt 00:19:33.170 --> 00:19:35.329 she had no choice but to do something about it 00:19:35.329 --> 00:19:38.549 and that's where she then started to try to rehabilitate 00:19:38.549 --> 00:19:41.440 these past pets and also to protect the areas 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.339 where she would be releasing them. So it sort 00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:46.960 of happened naturally, I think, for each of them, 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:50.839 but it was almost just, it was inevitable in 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.160 a way, just because of the way that we're seeing, 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:57.079 sadly, our primate cousins being threatened. 00:19:58.420 --> 00:20:00.539 The Orangutan story is a great part of the book. 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:05.470 It's an amazing part of the book. You mentioned 00:20:05.470 --> 00:20:07.690 a little bit about Madagascar, but I think you 00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:09.670 should talk a little bit more about that because 00:20:09.670 --> 00:20:12.430 you have a project in Madagascar. Tell us a little 00:20:12.430 --> 00:20:16.109 bit more about that. Yeah. So along with my husband, 00:20:16.109 --> 00:20:18.690 Travis Stephens, so he's also a primatologist. 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:23.089 So he actually founded a charity that we both 00:20:23.089 --> 00:20:26.930 work on called Planet Madagascar. And so this 00:20:26.930 --> 00:20:30.869 is how I kind of stay in the primate world. So 00:20:30.869 --> 00:20:36.130 it's a charity that aims to help uh both people 00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:39.650 and wildlife in Madagascar so it's sort of borrows 00:20:39.650 --> 00:20:41.890 actually from one of the women in the book, Alison 00:20:41.890 --> 00:20:45.190 Jolly, whose her nickname was the Mother of Lemurs. 00:20:45.529 --> 00:20:49.549 And she was married to an economist named Richard 00:20:49.549 --> 00:20:53.210 Jolly. And because she kind of she would say 00:20:53.210 --> 00:20:55.710 that she saw both like the people side of things 00:20:55.710 --> 00:20:58.589 and the animal side of things. So through her 00:20:58.589 --> 00:21:01.069 economist husband, she saw the people and that 00:21:01.069 --> 00:21:04.509 they were in Madagascar, many living on less 00:21:04.509 --> 00:21:08.289 than $2 a day, kind of suffering day to day with 00:21:10.369 --> 00:21:14.450 diseases and a lot of children being malnourished. 00:21:14.569 --> 00:21:16.990 And so that was the kind of people side. And 00:21:16.990 --> 00:21:19.549 then on the other hand, you see the wildlife 00:21:19.549 --> 00:21:23.009 in Madagascar rapidly disappearing. And so she 00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:25.730 had come up with this idea of community conservation, 00:21:25.849 --> 00:21:28.819 which is what we use. in Planet Madagascar where 00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:31.380 you work directly with the communities to design 00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:35.299 and conceive of projects, protect. So for instance, 00:21:35.299 --> 00:21:38.299 we do a fire management program where we hire 00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:41.819 local community members to work for us and they 00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:44.200 get a salary from that. So then they see a benefit, 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.319 a tangible benefit to, you know, protecting the 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:49.779 forest and protecting the lemurs. Yeah, so we've 00:21:49.779 --> 00:21:52.079 been pretty successful with some fire management 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.359 programs, forest restoration, and we've also 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:57.970 built some schools. and we have a number of different 00:21:57.970 --> 00:22:00.650 community development projects. So it's really 00:22:00.650 --> 00:22:04.630 a holistic conservation program. And yeah, like 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:07.829 I said, inspired a lot by Alice and Jolly, who 00:22:07.829 --> 00:22:12.650 it's the mother of lemurs. So you spent quite 00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:15.529 a bit of time in Madagascar. And before I let 00:22:15.529 --> 00:22:17.170 you get out of here, you're going to have to 00:22:17.170 --> 00:22:19.890 tell at least one good field story from Madagascar, 00:22:19.990 --> 00:22:22.970 because all these people seem to have these crazy 00:22:22.970 --> 00:22:25.490 field stories. So what's your Madagascar field 00:22:25.490 --> 00:22:30.269 story? Well, it is in the book, but I will tell 00:22:30.269 --> 00:22:33.069 it here as well, because it's one of my favorite 00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:37.339 moments that I've had. So it was a hot day. So 00:22:37.339 --> 00:22:40.880 my job as a primate behavioral ecologist, I was 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.400 studying where the lemurs went, what they ate, 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.839 what they did all day long. So I had to follow 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.980 them for 12 to 14 hours a day, basically from 00:22:48.980 --> 00:22:50.859 when they got up in the morning to when they 00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:52.539 went to bed at night, which sometimes wasn't 00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:55.599 as early as I would have hoped. But we would 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:58.660 follow them through the forest. And there was 00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:01.619 one day it was really, really hot. We were about 00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:05.150 midday, like 10, 30, 11. And the lemurs had finally 00:23:05.150 --> 00:23:09.750 kind of settled down in this big tree, getting 00:23:09.750 --> 00:23:12.630 some shade. And usually when the lemurs rested, 00:23:12.769 --> 00:23:14.769 that's when the lemur researchers get a little 00:23:14.769 --> 00:23:16.910 bit of a breather as well. So I thought I'd take 00:23:16.910 --> 00:23:20.190 a bit of a break, get some water, get a snack 00:23:20.190 --> 00:23:22.569 out of my backpack. And as I was kind of getting 00:23:22.569 --> 00:23:25.150 myself situated, the lemurs suddenly started 00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:28.210 kind of coming down lower and lower in the tree. 00:23:29.259 --> 00:23:31.400 And I kind of was kind of holding my breath as 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:33.140 they were just like getting closer and closer 00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:37.609 to the ground. Eventually they. sat right directly 00:23:37.609 --> 00:23:40.390 on the ground and it was about, I don't know, 00:23:40.410 --> 00:23:43.970 two meters apart from where I was sitting. And 00:23:43.970 --> 00:23:45.809 I had to laugh because I was just, you know, 00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:50.289 I was eating my lunch and I felt like I was having 00:23:50.289 --> 00:23:52.990 a picnic with the lemur. So it felt like a very, 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:55.329 like I was being treated to a very special moment 00:23:55.329 --> 00:23:57.349 after having been there for, you know, I think 00:23:57.349 --> 00:23:59.190 at that point it was about seven or eight months. 00:23:59.769 --> 00:24:02.470 So that was probably the most special lemur and 00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:06.940 memorable lemur moment I've had. Nice. What's 00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:09.759 your thoughts about the field sciences for the 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.259 next generation of women scientists? You've covered 00:24:12.259 --> 00:24:13.980 the past. What do you think the future looks 00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:17.400 like? Yeah, so I think that those the women that 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.779 I talk about in the book broke down a lot of 00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:23.259 barriers. So there's been amazing progress with, 00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:27.480 you know, a lot of female PIs and we're able 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.839 obviously to get our own funding and, you know, 00:24:29.900 --> 00:24:33.319 all of that. I think the next steps are moving 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.240 more into the habitat countries where the primates 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.640 are living, right? And we work with them a lot 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:44.559 in our charity, but also research the community 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:46.920 members themselves. There's conservationists, 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:50.420 there's women in Madagascar, for instance, who 00:24:50.420 --> 00:24:54.619 do primate research and who are facing similar 00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:57.369 barriers, I would say, to what maybe these women 00:24:57.369 --> 00:24:59.990 in the early days of North American primatology 00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:03.089 are facing. So I think empowering and building 00:25:03.089 --> 00:25:06.009 capacity within the countries where the primates 00:25:06.009 --> 00:25:09.490 are living is sort of where we see some progress 00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:11.369 that still needs to be made, but I think it's 00:25:11.369 --> 00:25:14.869 slowly happening, which is good. And if there's 00:25:14.869 --> 00:25:17.509 one thing you've learned from these women outside 00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:22.450 of the science, what do you think it is? I think 00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:27.690 it's that you shouldn't sell yourself short, 00:25:28.509 --> 00:25:30.849 no matter what it is, right? What it looks like, 00:25:30.890 --> 00:25:32.710 whether you never thought you would go camping 00:25:32.710 --> 00:25:35.990 like Jean Altman or, you know, you had to navigate 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:40.849 these tough forests like Brute Galdikas, or you 00:25:40.849 --> 00:25:42.890 didn't think you could get to Africa like Jane 00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:46.049 Goodall. Like these are things that you might... 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:50.119 decide in a way that you can't do but You know, 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:53.980 I think they proved that if you are passionate 00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:56.680 enough and care enough and you put in the work 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:01.779 it can happen and so don't This is also my dad's 00:26:01.779 --> 00:26:04.220 best advice to me growing up. He said don't set 00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:07.319 up Barriers for yourself because enough people 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.619 are out there setting up barriers. So make sure 00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:14.789 that you you know that you can do it. So yeah, 00:26:14.970 --> 00:26:17.089 that would be the biggest lesson I take from 00:26:17.089 --> 00:26:20.849 all of these women. Thanks, Carrie Anne. Carrie 00:26:20.849 --> 00:26:23.009 Anne McGoogan, author of Sisters of the Jungle, 00:26:23.349 --> 00:26:25.509 published by Douglas and McIntyre and available 00:26:25.509 --> 00:26:28.950 wherever you buy your books. This episode of 00:26:28.950 --> 00:26:31.730 Northern Latitudes is dedicated to the memory 00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:34.269 of Dr. Jane Goodall, who passed away earlier 00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:38.710 this month at the age of 91. Her work at Gombe 00:26:38.710 --> 00:26:41.390 Stream transformed our understanding of the natural 00:26:41.390 --> 00:26:44.410 world, and perhaps more importantly, reminded 00:26:44.410 --> 00:26:47.569 us of our connection to it. Through compassion, 00:26:48.089 --> 00:26:50.990 patience, and courage, she showed that listening 00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:55.910 can change everything. Today, we honored her 00:26:55.910 --> 00:26:58.170 legacy through one of the women she inspired 00:26:58.170 --> 00:27:01.269 as we talked with Carrie Anne Magugin, author 00:27:01.269 --> 00:27:11.579 of Sisters of the Jungle. If you enjoyed today's 00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:14.319 conversation, please subscribe or leave a review. 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.740 It helps others find northern latitudes where 00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:18.960 we bring you the people and stories exploring 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:21.759 our changing relationship with nature. Until 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.819 next time, I'm Bill Ault. Thanks for listening 00:27:24.819 --> 00:27:27.039 and always keep exploring.